Progress (or lack of?)

[vmiller]

Hey John,

Over the past month, I've spent countless hours practicing, filming, and comparing. I've had success with the drill you suggested in the article and usually have a contact point further to the right than before. Especially right after doing the drill. I'm also able to land balanced on the left foot with the right foot moderately kicked back, but not on all swings. On occasion it still comes out to the side, but not nearly as bad as the video in the article.

I attached a picture that compares a few segments of my swing to Federer's. The serve of mine in the picture is one of the worse cases of the kick to the side. What I noticed from the comparison is that the contact point is similar to Fed's and so is the amount of hip and shoulder rotation. (At least I think so?) What's dramatically different is the landing. I land much earlier in my swing than Federer and every other pro I've looked at. If you look at the second and third pictures in the sequence, you can see that I'm at about the same point in my swing as Federer, but I am landing and he is far from it. So, the question is, am I still over rotating, or is the remaining amount of kick to the side because of the early landing?

I'm thinking it's the early landing for a few reasons. First, my body is still rotating when I land. The left leg landing acts as a brake and causes the right leg to come around. Federer for the most part is done with his rotation when he lands. And second, the side kick usually happens when I put a little more energy into my serve which I'm assuming means more rotational momentum and supports the first thought.

I also notice that I consistently land at least 2 feet into the court and don't get much air. It seems like I get more horizontal force and less vertical force out of my leg drive compared what is typical. Not sure if that means anything.

What do you think? Am I on to something or is this another dead end?

Thanks,
Vin

[CraigC]

Trying to help out a bit.

VMILLER-

WE haven't met but I'll throw out my two cents here. Based on the series of photos, you might try rotating your left foot prior to the serve. Many pro players do this to increase their hip rotation. If you happened to cath the Hewitt match today, the move I am referring to was responsible for many of his foot faults. That slight turn might halp you gain both more vertical force on your drive up into the ball, and will help you land more on the front of your foot rather than the side of your foot. Lastly, I would recommend having someone watch to see if you are hitting on your way up or your way down after your leg drive. Landing earlier than the pros could be a sign that your exploding off the ground too early and hitting as you descend. Just a few friendly suggestions. I'm also awaiting your advice on this one JY.

CC

[johnyandell]

Vin,

First of all what a gorgeous presentation with the JPEGs!! I'm at least as happy at the way you are using the Forum as I am about the progress in your serve. Myabe you can inspire more people to do the same.

It also looks like you are making a lot of technical progress.

Your positions look SO much better. The contact point! You body posture! I think your rotation at least of your hips and shoulders looks great also. It's great to see and your work must be paying off. SO give us some feedback about the ball you are producing.

Craig--aside from the fact you are supposed to be working on your next article, I think you could be on to something. If you look at Vin's stance in the original video his foot was turned Sampras even Mac style. I looked at the video again and darn if it doesn't whip around and is a bit more open then and now--or it may just be that Vin's is still going into the court a little too much to his left.

Vin-- But do you want to try attaching a piece of video for us and let's take a look at your stance???

[CraigC]

Check out his contact photo JY

John and Vin-

In your first photo, you are inside the court and your left foot is pretty much already on the ground. This means you are hitting on your descent. Your dynamic balance will be mich more difficult on descent than on the ascent. I would really suggest making contact on your way up. Look at the difference in foot height in Fed's photos 1 and 2. He is still rising after contact. I believe this is cause of the major deficiency in your balance.

JY--I'm working on it!!

[vmiller]

Thanks for your input guys. I attached a few video clips. One is where the pictures in this post came from and the other two are a side and front view of serves where I managed to get my leg to kick back.

As for my stance, I have experimented with it probably too much. I mostly use a moderate Pete stance. The third attachment is a less open stance I was testing to see if my typical stance is too closed and severe. I've also experimented a lot with having my feet close together. Not as close as Roddick's, but close enough to use both legs. I definitely get more hang time with it, but still land early. I also serve harder with it but I always end up going back to the Pete like stance because of the effortless heavy ball I can sometimes hit from it. It feels great, but I lose the rythm of the motion easily. The closer stance seems more simple and easier to reproduce, but it requires more energy and feels abrupt.

John, as for the type of ball I'm hitting, I don't think it's any better than before. I bought a SpeedTrac (cheap rader) to quantify the results of things I've been trying out and for the most part I'm hitting in the 80s and 90s. With the closed (Pete) stance it's more 80s, but the ball noticably takes off after the bounce. I'm more consistently in the 90s with the close together (Roddick) stance. If you guys care to see it, I can dig up a clip of me hitting with my feet closer together. The height I get off the leg drive is noticably more, but as I said, I still land early.

Craig, I think you're right on about me hitting on the descent, but what do I have to do to fix that? Lower ball toss and faster rythm? As you can see from the clips, I'm not in the air too long, so maybe I just need to work on a better leg drive? I have strong legs and I see skinny WTA players with a better leg drive than mine so I'm confident I'm capable of it. I just need to figure out how to do it!

[johnyandell]

Yeah interesting! Great knee bend but not much air. Very interesting. I'm gonna think about it. Most players would be higher but I'm not sure what it means.

Regarding the quality of the ball--I don't care too much about the radar gun--that is what it is--wondering about in matches.

[vmiller]

Yeah interesting! Great knee bend but not much air. Very interesting. I'm gonna think about it.

Sounds good.

Regarding the quality of the ball--I don't care too much about the radar gun--that is what it is--wondering about in matches.

Too many double faults and too much variation between good days and bad days. And sometimes its just a good set rather than a good day.

[vmiller]

Hey John, maybe this will help your thinking.

I had an idea today. I thought maybe I was spending too much time at the bottom of my knee bend and losing elastic energy. So today I went out and tried to go in and out of the knee bend quicker basically by delaying it. I also tried to visualize hitting the ball on the ascent.

Here are some numbers I figured out from the video I took today. By the way, is the tennisplayer.net footage the same fps as a standard camcorder? If not, these numbers won't make any sense (which could possible explain a few things).

I compared frame counts of various parts of my motion before trying this new idea, after, and Pete's motion.

Duration of lowest point in knee bend:
Me Before: 4 frames
Me After: 3-4 frames
Pete: 4 frames

Duration of leg drive extension: (from deepest point to air)
Me Before: 5 frames
Me After: 5 frames
Pete: 5 frames

Total time in air:
Me Before: 6 frames
Me After: 6-7 frames
Pete: 8-9 frames

Time in air before contact:
Me Before: 4-5 frames
Me After: 4-5 frames
Pete: 4-5 frames

Time in air after contact:
Me Before: 1 frame
Me After: 1-2 frames
Pete: 4 frames

Here's what I think I can take from this:

1. The video I took showed that I was able to get in and out of the knee bend quicker as intended (although not by much), but compared to Pete, I was in and out just as quick all along. I guess this means I am not losing elastic energy as I had thought.

2. Thinking that the time it takes to extend into the air from the knee bend is an indication of the force applied, the quicker knee bend didn't make a difference and either way, my numbers are the same as Pete's. I wouldn't think that I'm pushing as hard off the ground as Pete, but then wouldn't it take me longer to get off the ground?

3. The quicker knee bend also made no difference in time from lift off to contact, and again, this was the same as Pete. This makes me think I'm at least not driving up too early.

4. The most noticable difference by far is how much longer Pete remains in the air after contact and in the air in total. This seems to be the difference in him hitting on the ascent and me hitting on the descent.

Based on all this, my knee bend and leg drive appears to be more similar to Pete's than I would have thought. So what's left? What is he doing to get that extra push? Could it simply be better balance or better body alignment? Or am I missing something that shows it's really not that similar?

The numbers and the video show that I was making contact at least a tiny bit closer to the ascent than before. However, the results on the court seemed more significant which gives me hope that this is something worth pursuing. Hopefully you can make a little more sense out of it than me.

[vmiller]

One last observation for the night ...

I found a few players who aren't in the air quite as long as most other players. The key is that they hit the ball sooner (less frames in the air before contact), so even though they're not in the air as long, they are still hitting during the ascent.

McEnroe for example is bringing his racket up towards the ball as he leaves the ground while I, along with Sampras, have the racket still dropping behind the back at this point. Sampras, however, has the extra hang time to still be ascending during contact.

Not sure if I should focus on the leg drive, the timing of the swing, or just leave it all as is.

I guess that's enough over analysis for today.

[CraigC]

Vin-

I still have some thoughts after looking at the files you put up.

#1 Your feet are at very different angles when you leave the ground, causing your knees to bend at opposing angles. (you look bowlegged) This will lead to an inefficient jump.

#2 Your knee bend should be done with your weight sitting back in your glutes and leaning into the court, rather than forward over your toes. In other words, you are shifting your weight down and towards the singles sideline when you bend, rather than into the court.

#3 You are opening your upper body a bit early. I know the video looks like Federer, but I believe the camera is at a different angle. I compared you to Sampras and you are way more open at contact.

#4 You gotta SPRING buddy!! That leg drive is weak!! (NO Offense--I can't jump either!)

#5 Try landing on your left toe inside the court. I believe you are keeping your hips back when you jump and landing on your heel. (I cannot tell on the video as it is not clear) This will fully commit you to the spring into the court. Right now, it looks as if you are holding back.

Do you get more pop on your serve when you serve and volley? (I would guess yes)

#6 Although this has nothing to do with your leg drive, I believe you would pick up some mileage on your serve if you led more with the edge of your racquet into conatct. The face is pretty open and you are not getting as much internal rotation as you can. This is a major component of service power.

Hope this helps.

[vmiller]

Thanks for the input Craig!

#1 Your feet are at very different angles when you leave the ground, causing your knees to bend at opposing angles. (you look bowlegged) This will lead to an inefficient jump.

I've experimented with different stances and the angle of the back foot never seemed to make much difference, so I go with what's comfortable. I'll give it another try. But if I'm driving off the court with the front leg primarily, why would the angle of the back leg make any difference?

#2 Your knee bend should be done with your weight sitting back in your glutes and leaning into the court, rather than forward over your toes. In other words, you are shifting your weight down and towards the singles sideline when you bend, rather than into the court.

Interesting. My hips being in the wrong spot could explain why all that knee bend I have seems to dissipate into nothing. I'll try this out while also trying to adhere to John's advice of staying straight at the waste.

#3 You are opening your upper body a bit early. I know the video looks like Federer, but I believe the camera is at a different angle. I compared you to Sampras and you are way more open at contact.

Yeah, I see this compared to Sampras too, but I think most players open up more than him. Assuming I've improved my contact point to not be too far to the left, as John suggested as the case for this in the begining, maybe something else is happening. Any ideas?

#4 You gotta SPRING buddy!! That leg drive is weak!! (NO Offense--I can't jump either!)

I agree! I just don't get it man. I have a deep knee bend and strong legs. I rise as quick as Sampras and I also have a reasonably good vertical leap. The potential is there, it's just not happening. Maybe the hip position you mentioned above will help.

#5 Try landing on your left toe inside the court. I believe you are keeping your hips back when you jump and landing on your heel. (I cannot tell on the video as it is not clear) This will fully commit you to the spring into the court. Right now, it looks as if you are holding back.

I've noticed this as well, but never gave it much thought. Sometimes I do land on my heel, but I usually land on the ball of my foot, although just barely. It looks close to landing flat footed. Another good idea, I'll give it a try.

Do you get more pop on your serve when you serve and volley? (I would guess yes)

Haven't used serve and volley much lately, but not that I've noticed.

#6 Although this has nothing to do with your leg drive, I believe you would pick up some mileage on your serve if you led more with the edge of your racquet into conatct. The face is pretty open and you are not getting as much internal rotation as you can. This is a major component of service power.

I agree that there's more room for internal rotation, but I personally was seeing that in the followthrough, not before contact. I'll have to look at this more tonight when I have access to a better connection because I thought I was already approaching contact on edge. In fact, I've matched up frames of my serves with pros showing the same pre contact position with the racket face on edge, the entire racket parallel to the ground and perpendicular to the baseline. It's the followthrough that is consistently different. I'm somewhere in between Aggasi and everyone else. Agassi seems to have hardly any internal rotation with the racket face following through parallel to the ground instead of on edge (same edge pointing up as before contact).

Considering this seems to be one of the more important parts of the serve, I'd be happy to work on an improvement if possible. Can you tell me which attachment and which frame you see the open racket face in?

Hope this helps.

It certainly does! I enjoy experimenting and working on improving my strokes. There's always a chance a new suggestion will result in an improvement or trigger an idea, which is why I'm always appreciative of suggestions.

[crosscourt]

CraigC -- what you said about hitting the ball while you are on the way up is kind of obvious but something that I had never really thought about. I am sure that when I served well in the past I had swing thoughts that did the same thing. But today my only real thought was to get after the ball and make sure that I hit it while I was still on the way up and the results were excellent. Many thanks.

cc

[FiveO]

Vin,

What's been said above is good. Two more things.

1) More hip stretch. In your pre-launch or "trophy" position your shoulders seem to be ahead of your hips early. You seem to be leaning in left shoulder first. In that phase I would suggest stretching the left hip further out in front than you do. Feel the stretch all the way down the left side of your body, focused over the left hip area near the left pocket of your shorts.

2) Active deceleration. What I believe to be your problem in achieving more air and ultimately more serve is that you are simply decelerating near contact. You load nicely, you begin uncoiling in synchrony.......then.........everything.........ap pears.......to..........slow.........down. Result? Pfffffffft. It appears that its at the point after the racquet drop, where you're about to go after the ball and when you should reaching the peak of your acceleration, your clutching or actively slowing down. Instead of using the links to your advantage you're employing them to slow the racquet arm and racquet to a relative crawl. No linked explosion to contact, No snap, hence no air. IMO the lack of air is a symptom of that deceleration NOT a cause of anything. What I think is happening is that you a excercising such care in assuring proper contact and getting the ball in, that you are over-controlling the arm and racquet on the swing up and forward to contact from the racquet drop.

Try a "whoosh check" go through the motion without a ball. Head up everything. Listen for when the whoosh of the racquet as it rips through the air. Does it occur in the contact zone? Maybe not at all. Eyes up! The whoosh should occur throught your contact zone. If it ain't there get it there.

Next hit some serves without regard to result or outcome. See the blur of the racquet pass thru contact but don't dwell on results right now. Go one of one. One motion without a ball, one with. I don't care if the ball hits the back fence right now, we'll get it in later. Get the "whoosh" (the fastest part of the swing) in the contact zone. Relax and crack a few.

When you accelerate fully, w/o dwelling on the outcome, I think you'll feel the difference and that "lack of air" symptom will go away. Getting it in is the easier part.

Your toss and the phases of the serve look sound. They may be new but I believe your passing through those phases properly. I believe alot of the little intracacies of the serve mentioned above may iron themselves out by committing to the hit, and moving the fastest part of your swing to the contact zone. Once your there, we can work on getting it in, which I think, based on your mechanics, will be the easier part.

[vmiller]

Hey FiveO,

Glad to see you on this board and thanks for the input!

I think it's safe to say that you've seen Sonic Serve. I like the video myself. I've worked on hip stretch before, and if you look at John's article on my serve for August's 'Your Strokes', you'll see the trouble it may have gotten me into.

One thing I notice that I think may be important is what Craig pointed out about my weight and hip positioning. He said:

"#2 Your knee bend should be done with your weight sitting back in your glutes and leaning into the court, rather than forward over your toes. In other words, you are shifting your weight down and towards the singles sideline when you bend, rather than into the court."

As I go into my knee bend, my hips drift toward the sideline past my feet. If you look at the attached picture, you can see that the center of my front hip is ahead of the ball of my front foot while the center of Andy's front hip is behind the ball of his front foot. I'm thinking the position I'm in sets me up for a weak leg drive. It doesn't look like much of a difference in the picture, but try jumping (I know the leg drive is not a jump) with your hips in front of your feet and then try with your hips behind your feet. Big difference!

I think the weak leg drive is the reason for the lack of explosion you mentioned. I can remember certain situations where I'm sure you're right about the 'active deceleration' to keep the ball in the court. But I'm pretty certain that you'd see the same things on a serve that I put everything into. If anything, I tend to overhit more than I tend to guide. I've taped my serve at least 30 times in the past few months and the same crappy leg drive is there every time.