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A New Year's Serve

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  • bottle
    replied
    Originally posted by stotty View Post

    My Marco, who is 15 and more on the recreational side of tennis yet has a performance level forehand, keeps his elbow very close to his body at all times. It's funny because when you stop coaching a child sometimes a wonderful thing can happen all on its own. Marco can really belt a forehand and rarely misses. His technique lends itself well to running round backhands to hit forehands. It also makes the shot very safe. Hugging the body feels more safe somehow.
    Keeping elbow in helps this old guy, too, at least from the evidence of self-feed. I believe in the advantages you outline and will find out tomorrow-- with the geezers-- if what I think is entirely true. Hooray for longitude? All praise to narrow frame forehands?


    Last edited by bottle; 07-10-2018, 09:06 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    In Stroke Invention, I Think, One Can't Stress too Much the Importance of Being Shameless. No Worry then about Attribution or Where the Idea Came from. One Just Takes it and Tries it. And the Very Best Teaching Pros Applaud this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q4u...04&app=desktop

    Me, I was unhappy where I was in my serve (as were some others including my doubles partners), so I decided to do away with down together up together form.

    But I put the hitting arm ahead of the tossing arm and even began to hold serve more. But here is a way of putting toss arm ahead of hitting arm, the exact opposite thought. To try this will be "bending the stick the other way" (while keeping palm down for both choices). Will it work?

    Is this experimentation too messy for you, reader? Does it disturb you? If so I say to you, especially if you have long hair, mess it up first. Then try bending the stick this way then that way, this way, that way, etc. Anything but down together up together (which some professional physiologists even have declared an unsound idea due to something having to do with brain impulse).

    If you don't mess around, i.e., have a sense of light play in your experiments, it seems to me, you may never discover anything.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-08-2018, 10:24 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    State of the Game

    The serve in # 4289 is not worth further pursuit at least for me.

    What works is roller coaster with first coaster mountain in front with hand at level of neck.

    Second coaster mountain or rather small hill not in Costa Rica is behind with hand at level of neck but a farther distance away from neck.

    It is easy to bend the arm too much right there. Less is more. But more distance behind neck is more, too. The greater distance makes one almost feel that one's hand is below the neck. The geometry of the move however does two things:

    1) puts hand behind neck. 2) eliminates the need for muscular lift to reach this position. Downward momentum from first natural fall spills back to accomplish the task.

    As for toss, delay is marginal. Right hand goes up slightly before tossing left hand. The action is almost down together up together but not quite. The right hand wins the horse race if there is a horse race.

    Forehand Satyricus, the result of insatiable sexual research, satirizes the gratuitous arm motion in swashbuckling forehands.

    In this respect it is like a John McEnroe forehand, which does the same thing.

    A McEnrueful just bowls down and up-- minimally-- then massages the ball as Stotty says.

    The Forehand Satyricus replaces one's exhibiting arm movement of a peacock with a small bit of hand and thumb movement.

    The same or more pace-mit-spin is the result.

    On the other side, the constellation of slices remains just that. The drive is taken from FUNDAMENTALS OF TENNIS by Stanley Plagenhoef, one of the best tennis books ever because of its short section on backhand. The volleys rely more and more on subtle alteration of hand pressure as Dennis Ralston has taught. This leads, as one bothers to learn it, to astonishingly better feel, solidity, and control of direction.

    Overheads require repeated practice with a good partner whenever possible. Lobs, drop shots and dinks just require loads of inspiration.

    The most inspired lob is the one that comes down on the opponent's head since he probably does not own a good smash.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-08-2018, 03:37 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    ATP18

    Will the ATP forehand go bigger or smaller? I opt for smaller, and handsier, but keep in mind who I am: a 78-year-old with a partial knee replacement in one leg and a squashed meniscus in the other.

    These typicalities of aging don't keep me from rebelling against the obnoxious notion that old guys should stick with or even learn the mediocre ground strokes of the past.

    Yah, yah, hit flat or underspin/sidespin all the time and watch the ball go out.

    The important lesson here is that nothing stands still and there isn't one answer, everything is in flux, nobody owns the truth. If there is an ATP3, there will be an ATP4 etc., etc....


    Last edited by bottle; 07-08-2018, 07:33 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Originally posted by stotty View Post

    My Marco, who is 15 and more on the recreational side of tennis yet has a performance level forehand, keeps his elbow very close to his body at all times. It's funny because when you stop coaching a child sometimes a wonderful thing can happen all on its own. Marco can really belt a forehand and rarely misses. His technique lends itself well to running round backhands to hit forehands. It also makes the shot very safe. Hugging the body feels more safe somehow.

    Marco is an easy-going, happy boy who takes life and tennis in his stride. He wins many matches because he doesn't get nervous. Not getting nervous is a hell of an asset.
    Nice. In experimenting in self-feed early this morning, I tried different elbow settings at the end of my thumb sweep and curl. The 45 degrees of humerus down toward the court, as Brian Gordon suggested, certainly is attractive as a mean. But wherever the elbow first is placed, there still needs to be some space allowed for it to get stretched, i.e., for stretching of the shoulder house. Which I guess is the scapula if you don't call it the glenohumeral joint. (No great arm throw in any sport comes alone from inside the rotator cuff.)

    Sensational answers were not immediately forthcoming except maybe for one. If setting of the humerus is less than 45 degrees, i.e., quite close to the body, then one is better situated to thrust one's whole body upward, i.e., produce a narrow frame shot. Everything will be steeper. The margin of safety ought to be greater. One will need good balance but when if ever is that not true?

    A while back, Tennischiro wrote at length about the contribution a stretched scapula can make to one's serve. I probably then went off on a tangent in which I imagined the two scapulae making a double contribution, too romantic a notion.

    The late Mark Papas, with whom I know you personally corresponded, recommended a shoulder stretch on one side of the body while serving. So why not the same idea on a forehand? Seems to make sense in either case.

    Good day to you, this Sunday, with no Wimbledon going on and a cloudless cobalt sky overhead here. "This morning gives us promise of a glorious day."-- Wordsworth, "The old Leech-gatherer." (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poe...d-independence.)

    Question: Now that medicine has moved on from taking a LOT of blood, are leeches making a comeback in the UK and elsewhere in the world? (By "leeches" I mean the black squirmy bitey sucking things in limpid ponds, not doctors although I know that is their old name which we must make sure they never forget.)
    Last edited by bottle; 07-08-2018, 04:02 PM.

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  • stotty
    replied
    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    Voices Speak in His Sleep

    Alphonse: You did away with descending milkweed? That was the best part of your forehand!

    Black Bart: It's gone. But replaced with the relaxation of ulnar deviation and racket roll-down, arm still moderate high and bent.

    Alphonse: That doesn't sound a tenth as good as descending milkweed.



    To the court, where Bottle learns in self-feed that Stotty is right once again. Better to get elbow out from bod early. But Bottle is stubborn. So he compromises. Half of elbow space is achieved during wrist lay-back, the other half during nuclear straightening of the arm.
    My Marco, who is 15 and more on the recreational side of tennis yet has a performance level forehand, keeps his elbow very close to his body at all times. It's funny because when you stop coaching a child sometimes a wonderful thing can happen all on its own. Marco can really belt a forehand and rarely misses. His technique lends itself well to running round backhands to hit forehands. It also makes the shot very safe. Hugging the body feels more safe somehow.

    Marco is an easy-going, happy boy who takes life and tennis in his stride. He wins many matches because he doesn't get nervous. Not getting nervous is a hell of an asset.

    Leave a comment:


  • bottle
    replied
    Forehand Satyricus: Thinking About It More

    On high balls, the arm de-slackens (tautens?) from shoulder end.

    On medium balls from both ends.

    On very low balls from racket end, i.e., the racket goes down completely before the shoulder kicks up.

    In all three cases the shoulder become a sling shot.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Put Your Thumb Down

    This post is about the excitement of finding one's best forehand ever.

    The other shots all seemed to work then too.

    But I detect the chimera here (https://www.google.com/search?q=chim...hrome&ie=UTF-8).

    A forehand that's great today-- especially a new one-- tomorrow is apt to go awry.

    Well then, at least one got to see some excellence for the single day-- i.e., reward for design effort.

    What all listeners/watchers of the recent Brian Gordon instructional videos are now doing isn't science but applied science-- the application of HIS science.

    Me, I make an extrapolation (https://www.google.com/search?q=exst...hrome&ie=UTF-8) from the talk we all have heard or dished out on the subject of mondo or flip.

    Brian Gordon explains very well, that, in straight arm version of the ATP3, 15 per cent increase of racket head speed comes not at the racket end of the arm but rather from the shoulder end.

    A repeating video in his article "Developing an ATP Forehand. Part 1: The Dynamic Slot," 18th furniture, shows one player actively countering the arm swing of another and letting forward pressure build before letting the other guy's racket go.

    The caption reads: "Holding back the arm demonstrates how the sling shot is created."

    This is the stubbing or sling shot or catapult (https://www.google.com/search?q=cata...hrome&ie=UTF-8) effect from which I extrapolate my design change.

    One lays wrist back same as Roger Federer does before HIS flip.

    But one can roll racket down before the flip, too.

    I do it without any lift of the racket but do let the elbow move backward from the bod a very few inches at the same time.

    To back up, there is sequence from wait position which is best explained at the cue level.

    Me, I have my thumb on top of racket, which doesn't mean the shot wouldn't work if thumb were someplace else, maybe wrapped.

    As opposite hand points vigorously across to turn the bod a maximum amount, the thumb on top of the handle goes independently to work. It travels level to the court indicating a clean separation from the other hand as well as a laying back of the wrist. Looking down, one sees one's thumbnail through this. The ball of the thumb-tip is positioned down sliding sideways parallel to the court.

    Then it curls down.

    To repeat, thumb goes sideways then presses down-- a single move which does not affect one's arm setting (bent).

    To reiterate, you've formed the top of a small loop from your hand only.

    The pressing thumb in fact causes ulnar deviation and roll-down of the arm thus shortening the distance of racket from bent arm to low point of racket about to occur.

    What you are doing mimics action at the racket end of a conventional flip ahead of time.

    Mr. X, a teaching pro who made a You-Tube video but was so humble he forgot to put his name on it, stressed that flipping hand and racket butt accelerates forward from lagged strings, the strings don't go backward from the hand.

    The same thing can happen without any roll-down of the racket since that has already occurred.

    The rising and rotating bod takes racket butt away from the lagging strings. It does so by removing slack from the arm and putting a tug on the shoulder.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-06-2018, 03:18 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    I like the image of a roller coaster but now move on to another, a pyramid.

    That would be a serve that is broad at the base and pointed at the top.

    Could use legs for the base, I suppose, but more whimsically, I choose arms.

    Racket drops at the rate of gravity but then, instead of climbing to a ridge goes OUT like spilled water. In fact both arms go out-- the water squashed against a hard surface spreads evenly in different directions.

    The hands now are far, far apart.

    But something else has happened-- a huge body turn measured through gravity drop and water spread.

    All this started with stance turned far around. And is slow as everything in any serve before toss ought to be.

    I've discussed delayed toss before, which may have led me, in practice, to serves in which toss was delayed too much.

    I see delay here, but just a little as the two straight arms spread out.

    Now the two hands go up, again on a single brain impulse, one from arm kept straight, the other from bending arm.

    At the same time, the body bends like an archer's bow. The two hands now are closer together.

    After and above that, you are on your own.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-06-2018, 04:37 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ar2_250fps.mp4

    Upward administration of topspin from the bod before the wiper begins. The wiper is encrusted therefore on the upward spiraling bod movement. Or would "imbedded in" be the better term? This is a narrow frame forehand. The hand reaches low point close to the bod, not far out from it. So frame is narrow in the back. And frame is narrow in the front, too, because of the steepness with which the racket goes up.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Voices Speak in His Sleep

    Alphonse: You did away with descending milkweed? That was the best part of your forehand!

    Black Bart: It's gone. But replaced with the relaxation of ulnar deviation and racket roll-down, arm still moderate high and bent.

    Alphonse: That doesn't sound a tenth as good as descending milkweed.

    Black Bart: But it is as good. Better in fact. And the elbow stays in. It fulcrums on the edge of your torso as wrist lays back. Then hand relaxes to drop the racket tip, with arm bend still held in place.

    Alphonse: Better to get the elbow out early.

    Black Bart: Conflicting notion. The distancing of elbow is part of the nuclear tug. One gets small hand movements out of the way to prepare for the arm-length-and-more full tug.

    Alphonse: Well why can't racket relax down at low point same as before?

    Black Bart: It can, but is that better? I don't know. I'll try it both ways.

    Alphonse: Too much to do. Too complicated.

    Black Bart: Not if you follow this simple rule. Mechanical then organic then mechanical then organic...Eventually it all becomes organic. With legs a perfect blend of circular and vertical thrust. Weight on both legs the ideal throughout. I don't know if it's old school. But it's definitely old French ski school. The less the hips angulate the more one's bod power is drawn out of the gut.

    To the court, where Bottle learns in self-feed that Stotty is right once again. Better to get elbow out from bod early. But Bottle is stubborn. So he compromises. Half of elbow space is achieved during wrist lay-back, the other half during nuclear straightening of the arm.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-05-2018, 07:51 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    "I like to talk about tennis."-- Roger Federer

    So we are at least in good company.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Report

    So I just got to play-- on the Fourth of July-- and I am surprised at how many geezers showed up at the lakeside park immediately to the north of the Edsel and Eleanor Ford Estate.

    The other day on my way there I got stopped by a cop. I was doing about 45 in a 35-mph zone. The cops are very strict in Grosse Pointe Farms, Michigan.

    So now I just set my cruise control at 35 and putt-putt up there and down from there, and tell myself that the amount of time the two drives take doesn't matter in the least. The view of Lakeshore Drive and Lake St. Clair is best in Detroit, after all. This was the signature shot of the Clint Eastwood movie Grand Torino. One passes Mansions and McMansions if that is what one likes, along with Canadian geese pooping on the grass and in the water. Milos Raonic, Justin Trudeau and the Stratford, Ontario theater, arguably biggest and best in North America are not far distant, and one can see portions of the Canadian shore to the south, which is counter-intuitive.

    The cop let me off. It was either what I said or didn't say.

    So we played, and I hit a lot of the new forehands, not just one or two.

    I cannot see how-- logically-- any forehand that contains slow extension from the elbow just before a flip can claim extra pace and spin from a loop.

    Rhythm, positioning, even comfort and flow, yes, but I argue for all the editing, i.e., paring away I now have done.

    Brent Abel, who recently won another national championship (in seventies bracket singles this time), argues against constantly trying to retool one's strokes especially for the purpose of generating a few more RPS of topspin when there are more important things to think about, such as WRS, "what's the right shot?"

    The caveat he permits is modification toward simplicity, a weeding out of gratuitous elements.

    That is what I feel I am doing. What used to be flip is now a single tug, caused by rotation reverse, and powerful enough not only to remove all slack from the arm but to stretch the housing of one's shoulder into a slingshot for 15 per cent more linear power-- from the arm.

    I know the arguments for keeping left hand on the throat of the racket for a good proportion of the backswing. But consider too how much movement gets excised when one simply points across to achieve just as big a bod turn as in any other method.

    Most controversial of the news changes, I suppose, is elimination of all transition between bod rotations backward and forward.

    No one has insisted that I have incurred a loss of control and precision by making this change-- at least not yet.

    I myself don't know if such dissolution is true. I will experiment until I have the answer.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-05-2018, 08:13 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    There Has to Be a Pay-off for Doing Less

    First though we need to ask ourself why the discrepancy between forehands fed by ourself and forehands fed by an opponent.

    The answer beyond the possibility that one is not getting into perfect position is that momentum of the oncoming ball changes the math of the collision between the ball and the strings.

    In self-feed you supply all the power yourself. In opponent-feed you get to use the other person's speed to increase or decrease the speed of your own shot. So if you practice self-feed a lot as I do for purpose of discovery, when you start to play you will find yourself over-hitting too many shots.

    Actually this is not a bad place to be if only you will understand it.

    To meet the transitional challenge I propose 1) soften the flip and 2) narrow up the frame.

    Softening the flip is a process that began with laying the wrist back early. But rolling the racket over early has the same effect-- in fact if you do both to physical capability you could see the subsequent flip disappear, something you may not wish to do.

    Solution: Just roll the racket down part of the available range as you lay back your hand to the max. The combination from early separation will take the strings back a considerable amount, enough that, with huge shoulders turn factored in you won't need to do much else.

    The wide base of Roger Federer and other modern players suggests much hitting through the ball.

    For comparison, however, consider the early pioneer of extreme topspin Tom Okker. He stayed down on widely set knees in predominantly neutral stance with those knees pressing toward the net. And had contempt for bod movement that went up.

    While Roger's knees, torso and arm all combine to offer sequential "linearity," the linearity is combined with total body extrusion and rise-- a narrow frame in other words.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-04-2018, 04:20 AM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Rotorded Serving: One More Time

    The roller coaster of don_budge is a brilliant idea.

    As are the windmills once propounded by John Yandell.

    And the figure eights of tennischiro.

    And the throwing exercises of Alan Jaeger (https://www.jaegersports.com/staff/), particularly those Alan advocates before long toss.

    Jaeger's emphasis is that the arm is a human organism, not a metaphor for weakness. It is seen as individual (quirky) and best thought of as something stout and loose and full of blood from shoulder right out to one's fingertips. Arm health is everything, a passion even, at the Jaegersports website.

    The windmill exercise seems an especially good beginning for this. So with racket in hand, do five backward windmills or more right now to animate and invigorate the arm.

    Now squeak a few times: You are a mouse.

    Now do some figure eights just as tennischiro (Don Brosseau) has explained in his videos, but with this exception for rotorded serving. Instead of letting them get facile and continuous like Serena's six or seven at the coin toss, save your complete continuity for the windmills.

    My idea, for the figure eights, is to run each one through the full cycle you have carefully engineered-- through Don's online advice-- but stop at the point where you last started your service motion in its previous incarnation.

    For me that is with hip bumped out and hands at medium height, which is not high enough.

    The seminal cue, given to me by a teaching pro in Front Royal, Virginia, Jason Robertson, is hand behind neck as prime characteristic of a good serve every time.

    That cue has the arm nicely bent as if poised to throw. The racket is neither open nor closed but on edge above the hand.

    Well, both hands will be nicely bent now to begin every serve. But not high enough. So, to go the full roller coaster route I'll lift them to just in front of my neck as weight rocks forward. One might hear the clicks of an imaginary winch pulling the joined hands up.

    This creates two roller coaster mountains, one directly in front of the neck and one behind it, with hand at same level in both instances and arm identically bent.

    Now the hands fall to straighten arms and separate at the rate of gravity from the weight of the arms and racket; but, only the hitting arm comes up.

    How should one do this? From momentum only? No, add a little muscular lift of the elbow. You won't need much thanks to the first tall drop point but still ought to add this small bit of oomph to buy time.

    What else needs emphasis? A lot.

    Especially the following idea for us restricted shoulder servers. There is no backward bod turn of any type until just before hand reaches its seminal position directly behind the neck.

    But that bit of turn, kept purposefully small, gets to meld with liquid continuity into the full backward bod turns that occur in tandem with upper arm twisting inward and delayed toss now finally allowed to occur.

    Such a delayed toss, it is my contention, should be hit at its apogee, not when it has dropped. And I started from a stance turned WAY AROUND.

    And held serve every time in a two-hour doubles session as opposed to losing serve every time in the previous two-hour session.
    Last edited by bottle; 07-03-2018, 09:50 AM.

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