UPWORD or OUTWORD? is the key

[stickman]

Now that were on the topic of serving motions. I wanted to give my interpertation on whats really going on.

When you look at the high speed footage theres something that really jumps out but iv"e yet to here any comments about it!

Now looking at how far back the forearm rotates back, its easy to come to the conclusion that. That is the determining factor in generating the racket speed nessary to produce world class serves.

But, are we looking at the wrong racket drop? I think so, if you look at the old footage of the greats, of the past. You will see something a little different, they could'nt elevate off the grownd, but they {big bill , jack cramer} could still pound it! So they made up for that disadvantage by rotating the arm, and the forearm as one unit. And you will see that by the time the elbow {hits the plain of glass} and stops driving forword throught the stroke, there forearm is almost fully extended!!

Which translates into the forearm moving on it's own from the same posisition for a sugnificently less amount of time!! {Fractions of a second i mean.}

COMEPARED to agassi , nadal, Davydenko , Kuerten..... all the players who are considered to not have the huge serve!

NOW when we look at Roddick, McEnroe, Mirnyi, Dent , Ivanisevic... what do we see? All the players who have the biggest serves on the tour, have there forearm almost completly strainted out when there elbow stops driving forword!

So we all know about the kenitic chane. If you have more segments moving together at the same time theres more energy being prodused! And when that stops, you got, what you got! {From a producing energy stand point.}

So what are the top servers actually doing? There using multiple units driving through the ball, up until the very last instent. Thereby alowing the kenetic chane to produse the most racket head speed. Until the very last instent. Not by there racket drop, but by eleminitaing the amount of time only the forearm is producing racket head speed!! Something that all the 1aa servers do not execute to the extent of the great servers. On all ocasions!

Well what do you think? Check out the amount of distance traveled by the forearm when the elbow stops driving forword , in players like Roddick compared to nadal . And soforth. You might be supprised! Maby. lol

[stickman]

Now im not suggesting having no racket drop is the magical key to succcess.
Because that is deffinitly not the case, But what i am saying is, are we missing one of the key elements that producess world class racket speed, which produces world class serves?

And sence this is a commonality, it is absolutly something that a lot of the members, "beit not in there 20s any more" are more than capible of producing on there own. Along with any level of player i would think, it would just require a slightly different level of timing, in order to produce.

Im going to use me as an example, i sure can't get a racket drop like roddick but i can serve in the mid 120s easly, so how is that possible? I utilise what i got very "effently"?, bad spelling, in part by driving the elbow through, and up until i make contact.

[uspta146749877]

spelling

Now im not suggesting having no racket drop is the magical key to succcess.
Because that is deffinitly not the case, But what i am saying is, are we missing one of the key elements that producess world class racket speed, which produces world class serves?

And sence this is a commonality, it is absolutly something that a lot of the members, "beit not in there 20s any more" are more than capible of producing on there own. Along with any level of player i would think, it would just require a slightly different level of timing, in order to produce.

Im going to use me as an example, i sure can't get a racket drop like roddick but i can serve in the mid 120s easly, so how is that possible? I utilise what i got very "effently"?, bad spelling, in part by driving the elbow through, and up until i make contact.

Could you help with commas and spelling in the first sententence?
Did you mean "No, I am NOT suggesting ...."

[airforce1]

maybe we don't all know about the kinetic chain??

Isn't it where things get more power from firing or moving in sequence or stages, rather than having everything firing or moving together as you appear to discuss?

Also, velocity with spin is critical here, so just any method of producing velocity is not valid;
if it can not be used effectively around in the service box with a high degree of consistancy, it is useless in this game.

[stickman]

yes

well when it comes to any form of spelling and grammer ,.?'; i dont have a clue i basicley throw commas in there every line and a half or so. lol


"No, I am NOT suggesting ...." is the point i was trying to make.

Airforce- i am not sugesting more power is more important than, the power and
spin combination, if that is something that is easly achived.

I was mearly looking at the velocites of the bigest servers and comparing them as a hole, to the players who do not have the ability to hit that kind of pace. And of all the many differences in every individual service motion, there is one commonarity, the delayed realese of the forearm. Even though all the big servers i stated orignaly dont produce that incredible racket drop. But can still serve in the mid 130s. If there is less racket drop but equal pace were's the missing link? so...

What is your idea when it comes to the distance traveled by the forarm alone, in relation to generating more pace, by delaying the forearm release?

[airforce1]

I clearly misunderstood your post and agree if you are encouraging delayed forearm extension. I read your post to say the opposite.

I can't agree that there are top servers that don't get good racket drop. Who do you see making that happen. All of the big servers I have studied clearly have excellent drop.

[stickman]

Well when i said great racket drop, i was comparing everybody that serves huge, to Andy Roddick.

Which was not a great analigy because he has the most extreme racket drop.

All the players that i named in the begining had excellent racket drop for sure, your right on about that. I was in no way questioning the relevance of the deep racket drop. Its one of, if not the most important element on the serve.

But i also see numerous players that get good racket drop but dont have the mph's. And i have never herd of or even thought of looking at the release of the forearm, until i caught it by accedent, and thought, wow that might be something!

I was just trying to put in words what i was seeing , which isent allways easy, i was really trying to pinpoint all the components of the making of the top servers. And seeing the delayed forearm release looked like something new that could be duplicatet rather easly.

When it comes to questions like this, John Y seems to allways have a perfect explination, it be interisting to here his thoughts.

[airforce1]

You might like some of the post on the upward swing and Dj's serve. I think there are 3 in all going right now with at least 2 being at the top in the stickys.

Drop and delayed extension are the 2 main items focused on in those threads, for the very reasons you state. I agree with you on how hard it can be to address this in print and it really helps us to appreciate what John and his crew do on this site. You will see in my posts where I have supported your assertions on these 2 areas.

Maybe you can post again after reading those threads and see how it relates to what you are saying.

[stickman]

aaahhh, yes it all makes sence now, I was looking at the same thing everybody else was looking at in the serve. But by reading the analigy as to how to preform, "the said prosess", it was very difficult to translate there words into the techinal components.

Which was why i was a little confused, I happen to be a visual learner, so i was trying to duplicate the words instead of the motion.

So bye watching the D.J. serve i decided im going to just try and immulate what he's doing and see what happens. And sure enough i felt like i could get more pop when i delayed the forearm, but it produced lesss spin, and i could also stall the elbow a bit alowing the forarm to travel longer on its own, which created more spin but less pace.

So i saw the 2 main components, racket drop, and delayed extention, and said why didn't they just put it out there, in plain english! lol Which they did politicaly, correctly.

I the head pro at my club, and i try and teach tennis, with the Doctor Fill message- "your six year old kid weighs 134 lbs, because you feed him to much food!" Docter Fill, I just find it make's the information so much easyer to understand when put out there, in it's the simplest form.

Which is why i enjoy reading John yandell's reasearch so much.

[airforce1]

stickman,
don't feel bad, as we have been hashing this about for over 4 years and I still get the sense that John is less than convinced of my (and now yours) observation on the importance of these 2 issues.

My contention has been that these 2 items
(I discussed them as separate parts of one technique)

are what separate good to average pro servers from the exceptional high velocity servers.
While several readers such as you may agree and many have expressed that the theory has promise, John has not endorsed this view to my knowledge. This site does seem to feel that racket drop is important though, as it is regularly mentioned in the "your strokes" section write ups.

Back in 2001-02 when I started working with this, I had not seen it mentioned in any of the 20-30 books/tapes I have on tennis/serving. I even wrote in to the site that preceded tennisplayer.net about it. While it may be mentioned in some write ups on the serve motion, I'm pretty sure it was never highlighted to the level of importance that I am convinced it deserves for high velocity.

[stickman]

heres some new info

While i have no factual evidence, of theses 2 topics. in terms of multiple suggestions by weel know tennis minds.

I do have this , i have never been a gye who served any bigger than 120 on most radar guns, EVER!!! However in the past days i have practicing the detayed forearm extension, and more forced pronation, through the ball.
And some how i went from a gye who never in his life served over 123 "Record" To yesterday i was boming serves over 130 Regularly I even hit one 136, For God sakes!

So maby theses 2 factors caused me to do something different ? but they worked for me and I havent hit 100 serves yet, so there has to be some releveance.

I think your right on , weather they catch on or not, maby its because you caught it first and it seems so simple! No mumbo jumbo just look and see it.

[airforce1]

That is really awesome that you were able to get those kinds of results.

You must have had a fine set up to measure those serves. That is one of the biggest problems we have had was getting the radar guns set to catch the ball early, especially hard on the really fast serves. What did you use?

I think you are on to something about how it is sort of simple. Some find it hard to believe that simple solutions can work so well. My experience has been that the simple ones are almost always the best!

I also think you are on to something about how the 2 elements do help to effect a chain of events that help the body get out of it's own way to unleash more of our potiential on the serve.
thanks

[uspta146749877]

What radar gun do u use?

While i have no factual evidence, of theses 2 topics. in terms of multiple suggestions by weel know tennis minds.

I do have this , i have never been a gye who served any bigger than 120 on most radar guns, EVER!!! However in the past days i have practicing the detayed forearm extension, and more forced pronation, through the ball.
And some how i went from a gye who never in his life served over 123 "Record" To yesterday i was boming serves over 130 Regularly I even hit one 136, For God sakes!

So maby theses 2 factors caused me to do something different ? but they worked for me and I havent hit 100 serves yet, so there has to be some releveance.

I think your right on , weather they catch on or not, maby its because you caught it first and it seems so simple! No mumbo jumbo just look and see it.

What radar gun do u use?

[stickman]

I Believe it was "jugs" im not exactly sure, i know not all radar guns are entirely accurate. But it was a multisport radar gun used by the high school baseball team, i also know it was around 800 $ which dosent mean it the best but im sure its pretty accutate.

And ya there was only a few certian spots were it could register , id hit one and it would say 109 and then he move and shoot it from another spot and it say 129, so its possible that it could he inaccurate.

But i was playing with a player in flordia who trained at img for a few years and hit with max the beast and said my serve had very close to the same volicity, i believe he his in the high 120s, and low 130s.

If you were going to bye a radar gun which would you suggest? And is it better to use a tripod to shoot the ball? In order to get the most accurate reading, because most dont even register. Or they register the ball long after its left the racket.

[uspta146749877]

I do NOT understand

I Believe it was "jugs" im not exactly sure, i know not all radar guns are entirely accurate. But it was a multisport radar gun used by the high school baseball team, i also know it was around 800 $ which dosent mean it the best but im sure its pretty accutate.

And ya there was only a few certian spots were it could register , id hit one and it would say 109 and then he move and shoot it from another spot and it say 129, so its possible that it could he inaccurate.

But i was playing with a player in flordia who trained at img for a few years and hit with max the beast and said my serve had very close to the same volicity, i believe he his in the high 120s, and low 130s.

If you were going to bye a radar gun which would you suggest? And is it better to use a tripod to shoot the ball? In order to get the most accurate reading, because most dont even register. Or they register the ball long after its left the racket.

Please explain the phrase "jugs"