Tweet
Found this on Youtube. Thought it would be interesting.
-
-
Definitely! -
That is an outstanding interview with Gavin. It looks like he has made a Justine Henin like technical improvement/overhaul on Ayrna's forehand, and completely fixed her serve. He is so right, sports psychiatrists are not going to fix technical deficiencies in one's game. She is now a force to be reckoned with.Last edited by stroke; 02-08-2023, 08:34 AM.Comment
-
Thanks seano, that was very interesting. I was particularly interested in the emphasis he placed on positioning the tossing arm when fully extended so that the underside of the wrist faces the opponent (my interpretation). He suggested there was some biomechanical reason (to do with the scapula) that aided the "pull down" of the tossing arm shoulder, which then aids the shoulder-over-shoulder rotation. Not sure I followed the explanation, but having checked that Fed & Sampras do indeed do this, I tried it myself today. To me it seemed to aid getting a full load and stretch into the tossing arm side, which does aid the subsequent "pull down" of the tossing arm shoulder. I will continue to experiment, but I think it's a valid point that I hadn't focussed on before. So thanks for posting.Comment
-
Originally posted by seano View Post
Really? Was there actually a takeaway from this interview? The tossing hand? This was a big word salad. There wasn't a single remark beyond High School Tennis 101 in this guy's lexicon. I listened to the entire interview waiting for some sort of white light to come jumping out of the computer screen. It never happened. Not a single word about what he actually did to improve this woman's serve.
I pulled up an old match to compare. I had watched some of the AO Woman's final for reasons of my own. Scouting the women's game for a friend. But I fail to see what this man had to do with the influence or changing the basic fundamental nature of Sabalenka's game or even her serve. Whenever I start to work on a serve I begin at the beginning and that is the setup position and then on to the backswing. Looking at the Sabalenka motion I will begin with a positive...she is very athletic for a woman. But beyond that...there is quite a bit of work to be done if you want to create a motion that is free of friction. I wonder if she is cured.
The one thing from the old Sharapova match is that I don't believe I have ever heard two women screaming at the top of their lungs like these two do. Very unattractive and unnecessary. I prefer the silent stealth of an assassin. These two are grunting and screaming to merely impress everyone how much of an effort they are making and how dramatic situation they are in. Big Time Wrestling at its best.
Somebody please point out to me the white light moment in the interview. I must have missed it. Entirely possible...nothing of remote interest except to validate some of the obvious. Could have fallen to sleep if I had tried to take it all in in one sitting. The voice...droning on and on. What did he say? I have forgotten...something about Novak improving his serve. Yada...yada...yada.
Comment
-
Well, I agree it was a bit of a rambling monologue, but the fact remains that this is the guy who brought Sabalenka's double faults per match down from 14 to 5 (easy to quantify) and improved her forehand (difficult to quantify) which significantly contributed to her winning the AO, so I think he's worth a listen.
I think it's difficult to explain biomechanical concepts to a lay audience - you need a solid foundation before making sense of what might appear to be inconsequential detail. Personally, I never attempt it, apart from rarely on this forum! I assume that the speaker similarly did not want to baffle the listeners with terms and explanations they would struggle to understand. He did give some detail on the tossing arm, which was something I had not heard before and found interesting.
Comment
-
Well said and I won't venture to say that I agree or disagree with your comments. That is not the point. The point is for you and I to express our view in a meaningful manner. As meaningful as our potential allows us. But he did not offer a single, solitary fix that he made in the serve. The tossing point was immaterial in my book. Double faults do not go from this to that because of what he said. Although placement of the toss on a second serve might just have been the simple "fix" to the whole rigamarole. Also...there isn't any proof from the video that he is responsible for the fix except him saying it is so. He said ZERO of consequence. Nothing at all. He did say some rather basic tactical points about this and that. Basically his tactical discussion was keep the ball in play and give your opponent the opportunity to beat themselves. Nothing wrong in that. Nother new either. But there was zero information that he actaully made a change in her motion.Originally posted by glacierguy View Post
I looked at her match with Sharapova and I did see bits and pieces of the AO Open. I did not see anything obvious in the motion. It would be great if John had some before and after video so we (I) could pick this apart frame by frame. His talk about her forehand was totally inconclusive as well. This person was performing at a very, very high level in 2017 against one of the best women players in the game. Did she have problems with her serve? Her second serve? Great...I want to see some real evidence before I start worshiping at the altar of just another "biomechanics expert". Tennis is metaphoring life. Now we must all bow down to this bullshit. Give me video. Let me see it with my own eyes...which I trust one thousand percent. I will not jump to any conclusions without evidence. Real evidence. Just as I won't be taking any jabs, vaccines or other substances injected into my body. I don't allow nonsense to be injected into my belief system. I'm skeptical...real fucking skeptical of everything nowadays.
That was one mumbling, rambling word salad. I would like seano to weigh in. He has a handle of this "biomechanics" stuff far better than I. Not that he could actually teach a serve based on any of that lexicon talk. seano? Where is the white light? Don't believe everything (anything) you hear and only half of what you see. It's all about the money. This guy is trying to cash in. He modestly (hahaha) gives his contact information at the end of the video. Great...it was an infomercial all along.
Comment
-
Limited early coverage (sorry I can't recall the source) was pretty basic. Arya's double faults are largely really -- I mean really -- hard hit slice second serves.
So ... toss ball less into court and more to left, hit up, kick serve for margin. { I could come up with that for something less than a six figure fee <g> }
Presumably, once confidence is built go for the slice when she wants to. Serves she missed early in AO final were predominantly (by memory) those hard slices with low margin. BUT she also started getting those in later, to great effect, but taking just a little off them.Comment
-
I think Gavin felt the significant improvement to her serve, if there was such, was the tossing hand, when dropped, going to the right side of her head, instead of staying on the left side of the head. Gavin singled out Roddick, Fed, Sampras and all great servers doing this. I don't think I had ever heard that advice before. There was some video provided in this lengthy interview, early on in it.Last edited by stroke; 02-09-2023, 12:30 PM.Comment
-
Here's a link to that part of the discussion.Originally posted by stroke View Post
I had trouble following him, had to replay a couple of times. One could easily miss him later saying she resorted to kick serves when she was missing with the slice, which might have been his biggest contribution. Nothing about how Aryna hits her slice serve with zero margin, high risk. It's a flat slider, all side spin, no drop to help keep it in the box. No rotation forward with right shoulder. Wicked when she gets it in.
Notes:
left side, palm inverts/ open to the side, scapula comes over shoulder, arm should come down straight with palm up.
Fed
filedata/fetch?id=99777&d=1676409641&type=thumb
Pete
filedata/fetch?id=99778&d=1676409688&type=thumb
#You do not have permission to view this gallery.
This gallery has 2 photos.Last edited by jimlosaltos; 02-14-2023, 02:11 PM.Comment
-
If I understand this I would tend to agree. I believe it's important to get a player to get the tossing arm to work in a slight clockwise manner while beginning the shoulder turn. All this BEFORE the release. Then again, I dont teach anymore, just drool in endless numbers.Originally posted by stroke View Post
If done, the ball will typically be released with the arm parallel to the baseline and arching forward and to the left in varying degrees. (more for a topspin oriented spin axis)
Just my 2 cents
Where's BottleLast edited by 10splayer; 02-14-2023, 05:40 PM.Comment
-
Bottle left a few years ago.Comment
-
Good stuff as usual 10splayer. As I have said before, you know your stuff.Originally posted by 10splayer View PostComment
-
The women's Austalian Open final was on again here in Sweden on Eurosport. I picked up on it for the last few games of the deciding set. Both players were really battling nerves. The other women was only seeded 22 so it is no surprise she was battling nerves. Sabalenka, for her part looked as skittish as a cat. Particularly as the match was nearing the finish line. I have watched bits and pieces of this thing several times. For one reason only...this thread and the interview sticks in one of the small recesses of my mind.
What I gathered from watching different parts of this match is that Sabalenka hit two first serves the entire match from what I can tell. Not only that...it almost seemed as if she was hitting the second serve harder while trying to create just a little more spin at the same time. This was no biomechanics adjustment...nope. It was more case of hit and hope. Or just possibly...hit and believe. My tennis coach told me that in the case of the second serve you have to be a bit fatalistic about it. You cannot just try and steer it in there. You have to swing at it. It reminded me of a problem I was having at one point in my playing career.
I was in my early twenties and I had been married for a rather short time before things unraveled. Unravel they did. I lost my marriage, I wrecked my car and lost my job in a very short span of time. A learning experience by the way. There really wasn't much more to lose, so I did what I had to do. I picked up my stuff and headed straight into the storm. More losing wasn't an option. When the weather turned, I turned back to tennis and began to enter tournaments again. It was going surprising well but I hit a rough patch. For the first time in my life I was having problems with my serve. I was without a coach to consult with and I had developed some tendinitis in my elbow which was excruciating pain. I was reaching the later rounds and making the finals in local tournaments and things seemed to start adding up. Perhaps some post-traumatic shock syndrome. We didn't call it that in those days...it was called a rough patch. Life is like that sometimes.
My first serve was unpredictable. I really had no idea where it was going or why. The second serve was a complete disaster. Since I had zero clue as to what was wrong I was indecisive and the result was really wild. I was in between just trying to get it in and just having no idea. The fix was very simple...just cast all doubt to the wind and hit the second harder than the first. I think at first the result was unpredictable but sure enough...I started to reconnect to my motion. Something about the nervousness of competition and the tendinitis created some bit of indecision in my reptilian brain and created a rather profound disconnect. I don't remember actually losing any matches as a result of not being able to trust my serve. That is the strange part of the memory of this problem. I don't remember if it cost me.
So sure enough...it looked to me as if Sabalenka just sort of decided to wing it. Her motion is absolutely full of friction as a result of a quirky backswing. You see...between her problems tossing the ball and the timing of the backswing she has a rather pronounced hitch somewhere south of the transition part of the swing...between the backswing and forwards swing. To serve with a hitch as pronounced as that under pressure could certainly produce a bunch of double faults. Her decision to just pound on the second serve made a lot of sense in this case. It was a choice to go out looking foolish and double faulting her way to the lockerroom or to go out looking brave and being fatalistic. As it went though she eventually had to serve out the match. This is what I was waiting for today when I saw the end of the match. What was this game going to reveal in hindsight?
What it revealed was that she had zero trust in her motion. She really made a job of it getting the horse in the barn. Serving out the match. What a nervous finale. She could barely contain herself between the fatalistic second serve and misfiring first serve. She actually did double fault on one match point. The game went back and forth and fortunatley for her, her opponent was just as nervous as she was if not more. It would have been very entertaining if she would have been broken and had to come up with some clutch second serves in the tiebreak. When she finally managed get it over the finish line, courtesy of a rather unforced error on the part of her opponent...she collapsed in a pool of mental exhaustion. She really struggled that game and to her immense credit and fortune she managed to get the job done.
She is still in need of a serve motion "surgeon" though. Biomechanics or not. Whatever you want to call it. A very pronounced hitch in the transitional part of the motion. Friction. Oh my...the friction. Making the second serve a demon you do not want to face under your bed. Particularly in crucial stages of a match. I love to watch players serve out sets, matches and even championships. It is a special time in a tennis match. So mental. So psychological. So emotional. Best to have a motion with zero friction. Take Roger Federer for instance...how many times did we watch him serve it out bing, bang, bye. I miss that guy. I knew that I would.
PS...thanks for posting seano. You are perhaps the best forum biomechanics expert.Comment
Comment