The lamentable death of S&V

[arturohernandez]

Hi Everyone,

So I was looking at O'Shaughnessy's analysis and just realized that there is a hidden gem in there for those who want to argue that Fed's lower (and maybe lower and lower) major count will be held as evidence that he is inferior to Novak.

https://www.atptour.com/en/news/djokovic-australian-open-2023-final-brain-game

The fact that Fed won a tournament using serve and volley and had to win Wimbledon in the old conditions has to stand out.

More to the point. No one has even the inkling of trying to mix in S&V. Not a primary strategy but if you are going to win 39% of the points from the baseline, then playing the match from the back is not going to get it done. Not that Roger would have S&V in these conditions. But why not at least try to get to the net some. Apply some pressure.

Or are those days gone? Is it really not a viable secondary strategy?

Can you tell I miss the old days?

[stroke]

Check out a Maxime Cressy match sometime, he is ranked about number 50 in the world.

[jimlosaltos]

Check out a Maxime Cressy match sometime, he is ranked about number 50 in the world.

Good points arturo & stroke. Maxine is an outlier. Ben Shelton, the 20 yo US kid, is trying to mixing S&V. We'll see if he sticks with it.

Also ... another tall, thin, African-American ... perhaps Christopher Eubanks?

But too few.

If other tournaments used courts with the playing speed of the Australian Open, we'd see more. But probably hard to have a tactic for a handful of events, then play differently on the glacially slow courts else?

[stroke]

I am very familiar with Eubanks. He is a typical big serve, big forehand, one handed backhand that produces too many errors. He is not handy around the net nor does he have by ATP standards good hands. He will never be a serve and volley type player in my opinion. But he is a very good player. He is very tall, a true 6'7", and very good movement for his height.

[stotty]

Tommy Paul had all sorts of net ideas prior to walking on court against Novak. These ideas, he said, were quickly unravelled because when he got out there, Novak made it so difficult for him to execute any of pre match his plans.

Serve volley is mostly dead as a game-style, partly because of the slowing of the grass courts, partly because of poly strings, and partly because of the increased power in the game.

And don't forget Wimbledon slowed the courts down because serve and volley was boring all the spectators to death! It had become all serves and put away volleys...boring, boring, boring on an epic scale. I know because I sat there watching Goran v Sampras winning one love game after another. They were responsible for the decision SW19 took to slow down the courts.

The game will gradually become more all round in my opinion. Alcaraz will be spearheading it I'm sure.

[jimlosaltos]

Tommy Paul had all sorts of net ideas prior to walking on court against Novak. These ideas, he said, were quickly unravelled because when he got out there, Novak made it so difficult for him to execute any of pre match his plans.

Serve volley is mostly dead as a game-style, partly because of the slowing of the grass courts, partly because of poly strings, and partly because of the increased power in the game.

And don't forget Wimbledon slowed the courts down because serve and volley was boring all the spectators to death! It had become all serves and put away volleys...boring, boring, boring on an epic scale. I know because I sat there watching Goran v Sampras winning one love game after another. They were responsible for the decision SW19 took to slow down the courts.

The game will gradually become more all round in my opinion. Alcaraz will be spearheading it I'm sure.

I blame one match for AELTC et al slowing down tennis and exterminating S&V, Goran Ivanisevic v Richard Krajicek Wimbledon, 1998.

I believe the "average" rally length was 1.5 shots. At one juncture a "rally" of 3 shots occurred and Bud Collins says, "Holy Cow! Tennis broke out."

https://youtu.be/t1yMXOOgoL4

[jimlosaltos]

This might warm your hearts S&V lovers. Stan Wawrinka wins the decisive point for Switzerland with -- wait for it -- S&V followed by a drop volley.

https://twitter.com/DavisCup/status/1621968308361695233?s=20&t=lRkU5w3El8FakDkMDtugPw

Stan back in DC for first time in 8 years, helps get his country into the finals.

[arturohernandez]

I am very familiar with Eubanks. He is a typical big serve, big forehand, one handed backhand that produces too many errors. He is not handy around the net nor does he have by ATP standards good hands. He will never be a serve and volley type player in my opinion. But he is a very good player. He is very tall, a true 6'7", and very good movement for his height.

My sense is that players that are too tall are just not nimble enough around the net. It is too easy for them to get passed with the two ball play. Hit one low on one side and then either make them move or wrong foot them. Cressy is great but he is just too tall to volley nimbly. He ends up missing a lot of volleys that Sampras would have eaten for lunch.

To me the ideal S&V player is the ideal tennis player. Problem is that slow courts turn into long rallies and so players have the illusion that staying back is better.

I think Tsitsipas won less than 50% of the points from the backcourt. Had he just S&V some, it probably would have helped. Maybe even chip and charge.

[don_budge]

My sense is that players that are too tall are just not nimble enough around the net. It is too easy for them to get passed with the two ball play. Hit one low on one side and then either make them move or wrong foot them. Cressy is great but he is just too tall to volley nimbly. He ends up missing a lot of volleys that Sampras would have eaten for lunch.

To me the ideal S&V player is the ideal tennis player. Problem is that slow courts turn into long rallies and so players have the illusion that staying back is better.

I think Tsitsipas won less than 50% of the points from the backcourt. Had he just S&V some, it probably would have helped. Maybe even chip and charge.

Tsitsipas and Cressy are two good examples of modern Serve and Volley and why it won't work. The reason? Imperfect service motions that serve to hinder and reduce options tactically speaking. I am Facebook friends with Johan Kriek and he posted the question..."How do you beat Djokovic?". My answer? Serve and Volley.

But here's the thing. You cannot just bang away at the serve willy nilly and lolly gag yourself up to the net. First of all...you must have a perfectly frictionless service motion where you can nip the lines and nip the corners. Producing tremendous variety of angle, spin and velocity. Placement in this case is every bit as important as speed. Think Roger Federer in his waning days on the court. He was winning his service games in less that a minute when he was rolling on his serve. When wasn't he rolling on his serve too? He was consistently excellent day in day out. The reason? Frictionless motion on the tracks of a rollercoaster. That car was never going to leave the tracks.

In order to get to the net behind a serve against a returner of Djokovic's ability you need the complete arsenal of the major league baseball pitcher. You have got to be able to beat him straight away with speed half the time and the other half you have to keep him guessing. Low and away? Up and in? Knock him off the plate. In short...you have to keep him off balance. So first things first...you want to serve and volley? You have to have the serve. It has to be perfect. The conditions of modern tennis make it nearly impossible for any less than phenomenal server to get in position to volley. You have to be ready to fail nearly half the time.

But then after the serving is honed to perfection...now you must develop a whole range of shots that are just not taught or trained on these days. In modern tennis. It is baseline first, second and third. So there is another whole different facet of the game that needs to be developed in the years of a player from 15 years and upwards. Concentrated on. Years ago players were trained to serve and volley, but they were also trained to be patient on the baseline. Patient enough to work for the opportunity...to go to the net. So it just isn't going to happen. It's too difficult. It is too outside of the box. People say it cannot be done. Who goes against conventional wisdom these days...even if that conventional wisdom is leading you straight to hell. Answer? Me.

I think that the door is wide open for a woman to lead the way here. Strange as that might seem. But my theory is...if you can create this perfect serve motion in a woman that is taller than average and train the necessary shots that are involved to play the classic all court game, this sort of thinking and tactic would take the whole of women's tennis by surprise. A completely different animal in the mix. Once this ficticious player learns how to dissemble the current modern game of western forehand, two handed backhand and ordinary serves...it may just make it interesting. But the serve is the first step. You have to have the ability to knock that returner off balance 75% of the time. You have to serve at upwards of 70% first serves in. Talk about statistics...there is one for you. And then you have to back it up.

Djokovic is this sort of tactic in reverse. He neutralizes the serve and then he is going to work on you. So the first remedy to play Djokovic is to have the ability to knock him off balance. Stefanos Tsitsipas definitely had all the tools in the tool shed. Grigor Dimitrov is another player that comes to mind. But the fact remains is that neither of these players have the serve to command the respect of a returner like Djokovic. Of course they should try this strategy on lesser opponents before working their way up to Novak...but it isn't going to happen because of all of the aforementioned reasons.

The only thing that will ever change this is if they speed up the surfaces. They should start at Wimbledon. The current grass at Wimbledon is actually a dangerous game and you are seeing lots of injuries with these baselines wearing out the surface behind the baseline making it impossible to change direction. They should, but won't, engineer the game to be played going forwards so that we would see the traditional wear patterns of the grass. There is that nasty, bad word again. Traditional.

[stroke]

My sense is that players that are too tall are just not nimble enough around the net. It is too easy for them to get passed with the two ball play. Hit one low on one side and then either make them move or wrong foot them. Cressy is great but he is just too tall to volley nimbly. He ends up missing a lot of volleys that Sampras would have eaten for lunch.

To me the ideal S&V player is the ideal tennis player. Problem is that slow courts turn into long rallies and so players have the illusion that staying back is better.

I think Tsitsipas won less than 50% of the points from the backcourt. Had he just S&V some, it probably would have helped. Maybe even chip and charge.

Eubanks problem to me as far as his volley skills go is not his height but his technique. He is just not nearly as good technique wise as say a Rafter, Stepanek, Sampras, or Cash. Cressy is much better technique wise around the net. As far as chip and charge vs Novak, I don't think that will ever work. First of all, Tsitsipas does not have a good slice backhand, particularly for a 1 handed backhand player. I still think the best play against an in form Novak is a healthy dose of the knifeing Fed type slice short in the court to bring Novak in some and out of his most comfortable area, staying back and locking down. Tsitsipas does not really have that shot. His backhand actually held up well vs Novak in the AO Final. His forehand though just made too many errors, probably because he knew the quality of forehands he need to produce to hurt Novak, and simply pressed a bit to much to make it happen. Certainly a very common dilemma vs Novak.

[glacierguy]

I still think the best play against an in form Novak is a healthy dose of the knifeing Fed type slice short in the court to bring Novak in some and out of his most comfortable area, staying back and locking down.

Evans vs Djokovic Monte Carlo 2021

[jimlosaltos]

Eubanks problem to me as far as his volley skills go is not his height but his technique. He is just not nearly as good technique wise as say a Rafter, Stepanek, Sampras, or Cash. Cressy is much better technique wise around the net. As far as chip and charge vs Novak, I don't think that will ever work. First of all, Tsitsipas does not have a good slice backhand, particularly for a 1 handed backhand player. I still think the best play against an in form Novak is a healthy dose of the knifeing Fed type slice short in the court to bring Novak in some and out of his most comfortable area, staying back and locking down. Tsitsipas does not really have that shot. His backhand actually held up well vs Novak in the AO Final. His forehand though just made too many errors, probably because he knew the quality of forehands he need to produce to hurt Novak, and simply pressed a bit to much to make it happen. Certainly a very common dilemma vs Novak.

Interesting take. While this is NOT an example of slice, your comments on Tsitsipas playing Djokovic reminded me of an epic (if tortuous) match between Djokovic and Giles Simon. The Frenchman eventually lost in 5 sets, but not before putting Novak through absolute agony and eliciting a ridiculous number of UFEs from him. As I recall, Simon gave him nothing to work with and hit those tempting no-man's land shots, making Djokovic either produce offense from a tough position, possibly luring him forward, or making him move backwards diagonally for his next shot, if he didn't.

Just looked it up: Djokovic made 100 UFEs in one match. That's a season for him, normally. AO 2016 6-3, 6-7(1), 6-4, 4-6, 6-3

This is vaguely like what Fed did to Novak in the Wimbledon 2019 final that Fed eventually lost. Then it was Fed's knifing mid-court backhand that repeatedly left Novak in that "should I, or shouldn't I" land.

[stroke]

I always felt Fed did not employ this tactic enough vs Novak. Fed to me should have brought or lured him in regularly and just hit the ball hard around him, or through him, and tested his net skills relentlessly. To me, it turned into an almost ego thing with Fed saying I can outhit you in rallies. That is simply not the case with Fed or anyone else vs a lockdown engaged Novak.

[doctorhl]

I love this thread. The Fed knife followed by closing in for a drop volley or holding position and hitting his drop shot. The Fed shallow wide serve which created sharp angles of return to close in on and volley. Somehow Fed lured his opponents' into a vertical game. Players used to get some exposure to a vertical game by playing doubles. Doubles has even evolved into more of a horizontal game. Perhaps the underhand serve or a yet to be created overhand slice drop or smash serve ( Google " pro badminton overhead drop" for a futuristic template) will one day have a place in forcing a vertical game.

[jimlosaltos]

I love this thread. The Fed knife followed by closing in for a drop volley or holding position and hitting his drop shot. The Fed shallow wide serve which created sharp angles of return to close in on and volley. Somehow Fed lured his opponents' into a vertical game. Players used to get some exposure to a vertical game by playing doubles. Doubles has even evolved into more of a horizontal game. Perhaps the underhand serve or a yet to be created overhand slice drop or smash serve ( Google " pro badminton overhead drop" for a futuristic template) will one day have a place in forcing a vertical game.

That's one reason Fed had such a good record against the "Giants". He made them move diagonally, not horizontally. Made them hit their big forehands while retreating.