Is the slice ever going to make a comeback for Women's tennis?

[arturohernandez]

Did anyone watch the women's final? Boy talk about big bashing. Women just keep hitting the ball harder and harder. It is full throttle all the time.

You can only bash yourself out of problems for so long. Two plays stood out to me. At one point, Sabalenka hit a short slice forehand that Rybakina hit into the net. At another point, she hit a deep slice up the middle that also got her a point. She won 66% of her points when hitting slice. Yes, big hitting works until it doesn't.

I went to watch my daughter play mixed doubles. No girls hit one handed. Forget topspin. Even slices were nowhere to be seen. My daughter meanwhile was chipping and charging. She still hasn't figured it out quite yet. But in doubles as long as she can avoid being poached, a slice will produce an easy put away about 80% of the time. It gives her plenty of time to get to the net and because she hits one handed the ball stays really low. It just doesn't not bounce up.

Barty showed us there is another way. Slice is a lethal weapon in the women's game. In singles, I see no down side to it. Tatiana Maria used it all the way to the Wimbledon semis. These days Maria has gone all gang busters and decided to play slice on both sides. At some point, using the same shot ALL the time doesn't work.

But mixing every so often. Even a 70/30 ratio of slice to topspin. It's not rocket science. It has proven successful in the past.

Anything I am not seeing. Doesn't it make sense to teach junior and pro women to slice more than they do?

[jimlosaltos]

Good questions.

I'll ask a sort-of opposite one: Does Saby's win prove the validity of "Red Lining" as a tactic?

She had 51 winners in 3 sets vs 28 UFEs.

Here are there points by rally length, I expanded the 0-4 shot rallies. Saby 35 Winners + 25 forced errors + 13 UE = 73 pts

filedata/fetch?id=99582&d=1674930143&type=thumb

[jimlosaltos]

Intersting graphic here showing how Saby won the 0-4 shot rallies. This is selected to show only Sabalenka's shots on rallies of 0-4 shots

She won 68 points vs 40 for Ryb on 0-4 shot rallies, while Rybakina won the majority if the rallies went longer. But not many did.

Hard to hit many slices if the "rallies" don't get past 3 shots, I fear.

If Rybakina got Saby's serve back in play, the first ground stoke was 13 winners for Saby + 7 UE + 2 FE = 22 points to the champ.

Just brutal.

filedata/fetch?id=99590&d=1674931354&type=thumb

[jimlosaltos]

Found this to support the "Redline Tennis" tactics won in women's final, Saby had the highest percentage of winners among points won in the event, this going into the final, where she added 51 more winners among 110 points won.

filedata/fetch?id=99594&d=1674941851&type=thumb

[jimlosaltos]

Did anyone watch the women's final? Boy talk about big bashing. Women just keep hitting the ball harder and harder. It is full throttle all the time.

Anything I am not seeing. Doesn't it make sense to teach junior and pro women to slice more than they do?

I feel like I unintentionally hijacked your thread arturo. Sorry !.

Perhaps repeating your question will help stir a response or more.

[arturohernandez]

Found this to support the "Redline Tennis" tactics won in women's final, Saby had the highest percentage of winners among points won in the event, this going into the final, where she added 51 more winners among 110 points won.

filedata/fetch?id=99594&d=1674941851&type=thumb

No problem. I wanted to see if someone would chime in. I guess my point is that redlining can work. But it only works if the other person is also redlining but not doing it as well. Rybakina is not a counterpuncher by any stretch of the imagination.

Craig O'Shaughnessy has this analysis from a year ago. Basically, Barty hit 4 bh winners up until the final last year. That number was much lower than the other women.

https://www.braingametennis.com/ash-barty-has-played-592-points-she-has-only-hit-four-backhand-winners/

Okay, so many girls will model Sabalenka. That is the basic mold for top women players today. The problem is that everyone will eventually face an opponent who is hitting bigger and better. Sabalenka did great this time. Will it hold up the next time? And what about the next time?

By playing a different style, Barty rose above the bashers. Graf did a similar thing. So, why train everyone the same way, when it is possible that a player might do better with at least some versions of a plan B. The easiest plan B is the backhand slice. Imagine if Rybakina could have slowed the game down with a great slice. She might have actually won. But there was no plan B and so she got out bashed.

Hopefully, that is clearer.

[morespin]

I teach all of the girls I coach to hit slice backhands and one-handed backhand volleys.

That low, skidding ball really bothers most girls because they're not used to receiving it and generally they don't have enough topspin to get the ball up and down.

The guys slice because it's necessary and effective.

I will never teach a girl to "play like a girl." Everyone learns to play like a "tennis player."

[arturohernandez]

I teach all of the girls I coach to hit slice backhands and one-handed backhand volleys.

That low, skidding ball really bothers most girls because they're not used to receiving it and generally they don't have enough topspin to get the ball up and down.

The guys slice because it's necessary and effective.

I will never teach a girl to "play like a girl." Everyone learns to play like a "tennis player."

I have been wondering why slice is so effective for girls compared to boys. I thought it might have something to do with strength in the forearm.

To your point about topspin in girls. My daughter states that girls often hit so flat. The ball just does not jump at her and tends to skid on the court more compared to the boys' ball which has much more topspin. The real interesting shot is my daughter's one handed topspin backhand which is relatively flat and very effective. It is like an old school Rosewall flat backhand. Now finally at 17 she is able to hit more topspin with one hand but just not as much as my son did when he was her age. His one hander was like a lob according to his teammates. Even today with little practice it generally bounces much higher.

This whole dynamic between teenage boys and girls is interesting from the one handed topspin side of things. Boys are able to generate more topspin and thus can feel competent at the one hander at a younger age. I see lots of them playing around with it. But only few will actually use it.

I very rarely see girls play around with a one handed topspin shot. Ultimately, that must come down to muscles, joints and strength. Trust me I am the last person to think they cannot hit one handed. It's just that the road is a bit longer to get the strength and coordination to be able to do it as well as boys can at a younger age. Does that fit with your view from the ground?

[jimlosaltos]

I have been wondering why slice is so effective for girls compared to boys. I thought it might have something to do with strength in the forearm.

To your point about topspin in girls. My daughter states that girls often hit so flat. The ball just does not jump at her and tends to skid on the court more compared to the boys' ball which has much more topspin. The real interesting shot is my daughter's one handed topspin backhand which is relatively flat and very effective. It is like an old school Rosewall flat backhand. Now finally at 17 she is able to hit more topspin with one hand but just not as much as my son did when he was her age. His one hander was like a lob according to his teammates. Even today with little practice it generally bounces much higher.

This whole dynamic between teenage boys and girls is interesting from the one handed topspin side of things. Boys are able to generate more topspin and thus can feel competent at the one hander at a younger age. I see lots of them playing around with it. But only few will actually use it.

I very rarely see girls play around with a one handed topspin shot. Ultimately, that must come down to muscles, joints and strength. Trust me I am the last person to think they cannot hit one handed. It's just that the road is a bit longer to get the strength and coordination to be able to do it as well as boys can at a younger age. Does that fit with your view from the ground?

Never thought of it this way before, BUT there are a handful of WTA players that hit ATP level spin on their forehands. From memory, several are small-ish. Ash Barty, Maria Sakkari, maybe Iga were hitting in the 3,000 RPMs. Barty in her own words, not mine, "I'm not small but I am short." <g>. Sakkari has a gymnasts' build. Iga is 5 ft 9 in and fairly thin. So, certainly fit but not big. I

[morespin]

I think there might be a strength issue with girls. To hit a low, skidding slice one must have tricep and forearm strength. How does a player get stronger triceps and forearms? By hitting a lot of slices!

It seems to me that it is a coaching thing too. It doesn't seem like very many coaches teach girls how to mix up their spins and trajectories. Hitting the ball flat is kind of the "default setting" for most people. A player must learn how to hit different spins and trajectories.

I used to coach a high school girl who played varsity doubles at one of the tennis powerhouses in Orange County, CA. All we did
was work on kick serves, heavy two-handed topspin backhands, and sliding slice backhands every lesson for a couple of years. She could hit the kick and make hit the back fence three or four feet above the ground on one bounce. Her slice backhand would barely come off the ground. Her two-hander would bite really hard. The boys she would play with said "she plays like a dude. I wish my serve would jump that hard." And she's only about 5'4" and 120lbs.

The point is that every type of shot is teachable and learnable.

[jimlosaltos]

I think there might be a strength issue with girls. To hit a low, skidding slice one must have tricep and forearm strength. How does a player get stronger triceps and forearms? By hitting a lot of slices!

Great anecdote, but I liked the intro most: How do you get the strength to hit slices? <g>

[morespin]

How do you get stronger? By working out!!! You get better/stronger if you work on it.

There seems to be two schools of thought. One says make your strengths stronger. The other says make your weaknesses stronger.
But, you have to admit that you have weaknesses and commit to working on them even if it's "not fun."

[doctorhl]

In my estimation the one handed backhand drop shot is easier to deceive the opponent and then execute from previous slices than from the topspin setup. A successful drop shot is worth more than one point because of its potential to remove the opponent's reliance to sit on their heels. Drop volleys get more feel from backhand slice preparation than from topspin preparation.

[morespin]

Absolutely. It's very difficult to read what shot is coming from the preparation of a slice. Set up to hit a slice backhand and then hit a "fader" down the line, a slow, deep neutralizer, a short angle crosscourt, a lob, or a drop shot. No other shot has that much versatility and disguise-ability.

[don_budge]

It seems to me that it is a coaching thing too. It doesn't seem like very many coaches teach girls how to mix up their spins and trajectories. Hitting the ball flat is kind of the "default setting" for most people. A player must learn how to hit different spins and trajectories.

The point is that every type of shot is teachable and learnable.

Absolutely. It's very difficult to read what shot is coming from the preparation of a slice. Set up to hit a slice backhand and then hit a "fader" down the line, a slow, deep neutralizer, a short angle crosscourt, a lob, or a drop shot. No other shot has that much versatility and disguise-ability.

As usual...Roger Federer is "The Living Proof". Proof of what used to be more or less standard issue. You can see even in the best one handed men's backhands these days that the universal use of the slice is exactly the opposite. It isn't universal. All are lacking in some sort of way or manner.

The slice is performed in a many plethora of ways and means. The backhand slice in particular. Even when hitting the ball in the air. The spin, speed and trajectory of the shot (the subtle power of the shot) are accomplished by:

1. The trajectory of the swing through the path of the ball. The trajectory ranges from severe "chopping" to almost flat.

2. The speed of the swing through the path of the ball.

3. The angle of the racquet face through the path of the ball. Ranging from nearly on its edge to completely open to the point where the strings are pointing to the sky.

4. The combination of the trajectory of the swing and the angle of the racquet face through the path of the ball.

morespin begins to give us a list of the possibilities and in reality they are too many to list. Tactically...the range is from severe defense to attacking offence. What passes for a slice backhand these days is far too one-dimensional. The subtle uses of slice in approach shots and volleying technique are extinct facets of the old classical game. So..."is the slice ever going to make a comeback for Women's tennis?" Answer...not unless we see a woman playing true serve and volley. Certainly and only if there is a one handed backhand woman playing the all court game. But I don't rule that out...given the proper combination of conditions coupled with a player that somehow finds themselves trained and skilled to carry out such a mission. But it will have to come at the proper coach teaching the proper student because all conventional wisdom has ruled out such an outcome.