Stroke analysis - Adelina 11 years old

[johnyandell]

Stroke analysis - Adelina 11 years old


Hi, I recorded some videos with the strokes my daughter developed after 8 months of membership. The forehand is a straight arm forehand, I tried my best to implement the biomechanics for a straight arm forehand that Mr. Gordon suggested and the backhand is more of a mix, footwork trained with David Bailey at the USTA Campus. I wanna say Thank you! for such an unbelievable site and I can say that without it, my daughter would not be playing tennis today. I hope you have a great 2023 and again .... Thank you!!

Florin Iftime

[BrianGordon]

Hi Florin - Nice work! Forehand a little "wristy" at end of backswing. Backhand looks pretty close to the most current version of my model. Keep grinding.

[florin]

I think the wristy part of the backswing Brian mentioned is the wrist pointing downward in the still below.

My impression is that her extreme open stance combined with taking the hitting arm so far behind her is causing her to over rotate. Look at how Roger's shoulders are in line and his left foot is planted, not off the ground like Adelinas. And his racket and arm are on the right side of his body. Compare Roger's back shoulder position and arm position to Adelina's and I think you can see what I mean. I also added the great straight armed Justine Henin to compare below. Look how her shoulders are in line and the racket is on the right side of her body.

She has the "flip" which is great! And her contact point is really incredible. I would just work on going with a neutral stance to get more energy going forward. And work on keeping the arm and racket more on the right side of her body. Usually people don't rotate enough, but i really do think there is too much rotation here and I attribute it mostly to the stance. Actually now that I look at it, Roger's knee and Henin's left knee are in very similar positions while Adelinas left knee is pointing almost backwards.

As for her backhand it is spot on. The first thing I look for in a great backhand is the chin over the right shoulder in the takeback. And she does it perfectly. I also love how she starts with the tip of the racket pointing to the sky. It leads to great preparation and rhythm which you can clearly see in her stroke. Amazing job there. Really picture perfect.

Thanks for your insights, I notice the problem with the backswing and the tip of the racket pointing to the ground, we tried to modify that, but is a work in progress. One thing that she tells me every time when we practice and ask her to keep the tip of the racket more towards the net, like Henin, is that her arm is to short and she can’t do it. When she’s using a shorter racket, the movement is different, with a circular movement at the end of the backswing before she fires the hips . I don’t know how i can teach her to keep the racket in that position and if is just because of the racket or she needs more practice.
And the knee position is spot on, i never noticed that, will try more close stance on the forehand to see the results.
Thanks for the advice , Florin.

[stroke]

I am certainly no expert, but I am not certain her flexion type wrist position is a real bad thing. Gold standard Fed and Justine do pass through a neutral wrist position just before they initiate their movement to ball impact(even though they prepare with an extended wrist). Adelina may just have this somewhat next Gen type wrist position(either neutral or flexion), which bypasses the model type 3 beginning extended wrist position.

[florin]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GemnCZbRYYE

This is her one year ago, she had a bend arm. For 3 months we played only mini tennis(that’s the only tennis i can play) and we focused mostly on footwork and movement of elbow in the take back, but the difference was made by doing everyday 15-20 min of throwing a ball like you stone skipping on the water, simple movement, split step, open the hip and throw the ball with the weight on the right foot. It was hard, she was throwing like a girl but i notice after couple of weeks how fast she improved and the straight arm was there. The same thing on the backhand, before reading the site I never knew that backhand is driven by the left arm, but now she can do jumping backhands and slices with so much skill. I don’t know exactly how it happened to hit straight arm, but for sure learning how to throw made the difference.
I’m happy with the progress she’s making, but there’s a bad part to it, we had to move from coaches and even from an academy because they try to change her forehand to a type 1 because “ she will never make it” with that forehand.

[BrianGordon]

As to the coaching aversion - welcome to my world.

Guess I have a different take on the wrist. Not sure what dynamically creating the pulling motion means so I can't comment on that. But from a biomechanical and applied perspective I consider this a developmental complication at best. More than simply dropping the racquet head prior to the pull, this laxity complicates the flip dynamics by prioritizing wrist extension over shoulder external rotation and destroys the sequence of wrist positions that allow critical positional and rotational relationships between the racquet and arm.

Based on my experience in building a lot of these forehands I would address this issue in her current implementation however difficult it may be - in the longer term, decisions about higher level development will depend on correcting this. Tennis history shows many have made contraindicated mechanics work at high level, but why put a developing junior through that drama - at least that is my approach to teaching.

Addendum (one day later) -

Confused? This post referenced a previous view that no longer appears in this thread. The position was that a flexed(ing) wrist at the end of the backswing may be a good thing pointing to Andy Murray (noted in stotty's post) and others as examples. That may be true but my experience has been otherwise.

I hope my post wasn't construed as condescending. I respect other's views even though they may differ from mine. As a rule I do not point these out because diverse viewpoints are important and I would be typing all day. In this case, I felt my experience could help Florin's daughter - no more, no less.

[stotty]

I always thought the main problem with Murray's forehand - aside from his stance which tends to be too open at times - is his dropped wrist prior to pulling the racket forward. Better to have the racket slightly elevated at that point. Back when BG first posted his articles on the ATP forehand on Tennisplayer, having the racket head slightly elevated was considered a key position. Indeed one of the recommended ways to teach the shot was to have the student start with the racket head in a slightly elevated position while the coach drop feeds them balls to hit. Doing this helps students get the 'feel' of things. You just have to be careful the student does actually pull the racket head forward (commencing from a slightly elevated position) and doesn't draw the racket back further, trying to sneak a bigger backswing - a common problem to watch out for in my experience.

I always think it's important to know what is going on invasively...muscles and tendons momentarily resisting and all that. It's key to know what's happening invasively and what the end result will be if the series of events all happens on cue.

Looking at Adelina and her level of ability, this looks very doable to me. I would adjust the stroke without delay and go for it.

[don_budge]

...is that her arm is to short and she can't do it. When she's using a shorter racket, the movement is different, with a circular movement at the end of the backswing before she fires the hips . I don't know how i can teach her to keep the racket in that position and if is just because of the racket...

After reading the comments, Dr. Gordon's in particular, I watched the video. My first and only impression was that the racquet is too big for her. I would begin to implement some "athletic training" into her program. Develop the athlete as well as the tennis player. If the wrist is not functioning as it should, the racquet is going to look and feel somewhat disconnected from the rest of her. This gives the appearance that the racquet it too big for her. Technique aside...my biggest concern would be regarding a potential injury. The wrist must hinge correctly in the most natural, biomechanically efficient, way possible. Otherwise you create a friction that wears and tears over time.

[stroke]

Brian, I have a quick question on this wrist thing, which is so complex. If Adelina had a completely neutral wrist rather than the flexion wrist/dangling down racquet head, would that be a significant difference? Also, the neutral wrist, does Fed/Nadal and the model type 3 forehand transition to a neutral wrist after the initial racquet head up/extended wrist position? Or do they keep the wrist somewhat extended throughout the motion?

[jeffreycounts]

My point was not that the wrist position was great, but that for an eight year old to create the stretch shortening cycle, as opposed to laying the wrist back from the beginning, this was probably a natural way for her to do it. And then I pointed out that players like Murray, Khachanov, Tiafoe, etc do it on their forehands, so it clearly serves some purpose in initiating the stroke. When I say "dynamic pull" I just mean creating the stretch shortening cycle where the wrist goes from a neutral position to a laid back position in a quick burst. And that's what I do see her doing, which i thought was nice, even if it's not in the most ideal manner. I mean none of the forehands below are pretty that's for sure. I'm not advocating for it. But I think there is probably a reason all these players naturally do this, one being to create the stretch shortening cycle.

wrist.jpg

[BrianGordon]

Stroke - the wrist position required at the end of the backswing to ensure proper racquet orientation depends on grip - somewhat extended for eastern and more neutral for semi to western. For simplicity I have my players find this position at the unit turn so no wrist movement is required throughout the rest of the backswing. A neutral position would certainly benefit Adelina.

Jeff - thanks for the clarification. You seem to be implying that the wrist musculature is the SSC enhancement target (perhaps I'm misinterpreting). To be clear the shoulder internal rotators are the target - the wrist motions are carefully controlled to optimize the orientation of the racquet relative to the arm. Therefore the last thing you'd want is SSC influence in the wrist - in fact it is a show stopper.

Khachanov and Tiafoe are not close to straight arm so they are not really relevant to this discussion. I wrote about the important implications to the flip mechanics introduced with the bent elbow somewhere on TP at some point. For them perhaps the flexed-extended wrist has some benefit to flip enhancement but it likely contributes minimal bang for the complexity buck and is certainly not a SSC event - mostly just individual flair.

Murray is close enough to straight to analyze through a type 3 lens - I agree with Stotty, his mildly flexed wrist is a net negative.

[jeffreycounts]

Jeff - thanks for the clarification. You seem to be implying that the wrist musculature is the SSC enhancement target (perhaps I'm misinterpreting). To be clear the shoulder internal rotators are the target - the wrist motions are carefully controlled to optimize the orientation of the racquet relative to the arm. Therefore the last thing you'd want is SSC influence in the wrist - in fact it is a show stopper.

No I agree completely that the shoulder internal rotators are the target. That's quite clear from your articles and from the video animations in them. That's what initiates everything. My only point with Adelina, is that perhaps she was using her wrist position to create the flip. Or to quote your article, to get "the pulling force on the grip in turn creates what we call the “flip,” or the backward racquet rotation."

But I do have a question. In the below still, isn't the angle of the wrist/forearm changing pretty dramatically? Seems to me it's a pretty big change in a very short time period. It really looks like Nadal is going from 90 degrees to close to 5 degrees just before contact.. Same with Verdasco. I always thought the ssc from the forearm and shoulder is what lead to the angle change.

verdasco_nadal.jpg

[seano]

What is the role of centripetal forces in these pictures?

[BrianGordon]

In the early forward swing the wrist is allowed to extend to produce the 90 degrees you show - this allows the rotating racquet (flip) to optimally externally rotate the shoulder. In the latter part of the forward swing the motion of the arm (rotation) about the shoulder (plus torso twisting rotation) produces a centripetal force on the racquet grip. Due to this force the racquet will rotate if the wrist allows it to do so. And this is what players do to align the racquet for impact. The rate of racquet rotation into contact is obviously critical and is regulated using the wrist extensors.

So... while the racquet rotates via the centripetal force (allowed by wrist flexion), the wrist musculature (extensors) is activated in the opposite direction to control the rate of racquet rotation for precise alignment. The SSC would angularly accelerate the wrist in the direction of flexion making alignment problematic at best - slap city. This would also have major implications to the ability to produce vertical racquet head speed via shoulder internal rotation. Thus wrist SSC is a show stopper to high level stroke production.

[seano]

There's nothing like a Brian Gordon explanation, love it.