Coco's Forehand: Some Hamburger with Your Sushi

[jimlosaltos]

All good things come to an end.

WTA Beijing: "Iga Swiatek snapped US Open champion Coco Gauff's 16-match win streak after defeating the World No.3 6-2, 6-3 in the semifinals of the China Open. "

"Gauff had not lost a match since her title run in Cincinnati in August. Her 16-match win streak was the longest win streak of her career and the longest by an American teenager since Serena Williams also won 16 matches in 1999."

[jimlosaltos]

With her third-round win over the hot Kudermetova who came from a Tokyo title, Coco Gauff now has the longest winning streak on the WTA so far this year, at 15 matches.

Looks like Brad Gilbert's strategy to turn the athletic Gauff into Sloan Stevens 2.0 -- flying around behind the baseline -- wasn't a one-hit wonder. It's sticking.


Highlights:

https://www.wtatennis.com/news/3722319/gauff-quells-kudermetova-in-beijing-seals-longest-win-streak-of-year

[jimlosaltos]

Gauff came back from a break down in the third to win a 3 hour match vs Petra Martic and keep her 14 match winning streak going.

2:39 min highlight vid at link:

https://www.wtatennis.com/videos/3718577/gauff-s-three-hour-comeback-thwarts-martic-to-extend-win-streak-to-14

[stroke]

I was only responding to the notion of the best athlete ever in women's tennis. To me, that is Steffi.

[stotty]

From Marca: "Tennis analyst Mark Petchey has recently boldly claimed that Coco Gauff is the best women's athlete to have ever played tennis. ...

"I personally think that Coco Gauff - looking at her right now with the speed that the game is being played at - is the best female women's tennis athlete that we have ever seen," he said.

https://www.marca.com/en/tennis/2023...20d8b45a3.html

Petchey might be right. When it comes to footwork, Steffi remains unsurpassed and she may have the best footwork of all time - she was so correct. But Steffi was mostly about dishing it out and not about defending, so it's hard to compare in that sense. But Coco is the most athletic defender I have ever seen and comparable to Nadal with her exceptional retrieving skills. I can't tell you how impressed I am with her in that regard. Hitting Coco off is going to be a very tough ask, and probably not the way opponents should go about trying to defeat her. You have seen her play much more than me so probably have much to add. I am really looking forward to watching her more.

[stroke]

I would go with Steffi.

[jimlosaltos]

From Marca: "Tennis analyst Mark Petchey has recently boldly claimed that Coco Gauff is the best women's athlete to have ever played tennis. ...

"I personally think that Coco Gauff - looking at her right now with the speed that the game is being played at - is the best female women's tennis athlete that we have ever seen," he said.

https://www.marca.com/en/tennis/2023...20d8b45a3.html

[arturohernandez]

Yes, her foot speed is tremendous.

My amateur opinion, since you hadn't seen her earlier and I've seen her live a few times.

Coco's forehand swing has, historically, gone all over the place. I'm not qualified to opine on grips. But I can recognize really bad footwork when I see it.

Coco would frequently overrun, then swing all cramped up and compensate by doing strange sort-of reverse forehands. Her off hand would go toward the side wall sometimes, then switch back, even mid stroke, to being pointed at the target.

Brad told her (we learned from John's texting with BG) to shape the ball more and hit with more clearance. That seems -- to my eye -- to have slowed her down a great deal and in turn gotten her forehand under control. That's 90% of the way home IMHO.

As I noted earlier, apparently Kei tried to change is forehand for a very long time. But it just would never take. BG has been around a long time. He wrote the book on Winning Ugly. So, he figures that she is safe with just a change in tactics. Barty is retired for now. My guess is the slice would be an easy setup for her every time against Coco. But no one right now has a slice like Barty's. So she is safe.

It'll be interesting to see how she develops with BG. He did wonders for Agassi and Roddick. Third time is the third charm!

[jimlosaltos]

I think Coco is the best defender I have ever seen. Comparable to Nadal in her ability to fish balls back from extreme positions. She moves so, so well.

Her forehand held up well against Sabalenka and didn't seem as bad as everyone says it is. I am not that familiar having never watched her that much so far. I was left wondering how her forehand would fair if she was slow-balled or fed junk to it. Where extreme grips fail is they don't provide great feel when it comes to hitting a consistent length, nor are they particularly good at dealing with junk.

What Brad is saying to himself (as coaches do in these situations) about Coco's grip is 'does she get away with it'? His verdict is yes she does so let's leave it. My verdict is, yes, she gets away with it, but at what cost. For me grips are fundamental and there is a price to pay for getting a grip wrong. And I don't care how stratospheric the player is. Sometimes players reach great heights despite coaching rather than because of it, but good coaching would have taken them a little further still.

Yes, her foot speed is tremendous.

My amateur opinion, since you hadn't seen her earlier and I've seen her live a few times.

Coco's forehand swing has, historically, gone all over the place. I'm not qualified to opine on grips. But I can recognize really bad footwork when I see it.

Coco would frequently overrun, then swing all cramped up and compensate by doing strange sort-of reverse forehands. Her off hand would go toward the side wall sometimes, then switch back, even mid stroke, to being pointed at the target.

Brad told her (we learned from John's texting with BG) to shape the ball more and hit with more clearance. That seems -- to my eye -- to have slowed her down a great deal and in turn gotten her forehand under control. That's 90% of the way home IMHO.

[stotty]

“You can’t just change a grip without changing the arc of the swing, so that’s a big change,” he said. “My guess is, from what we’ve seen, we don’t need to.

“Everybody mentions the forehand criticism about Coco, and yet she wins. I’m certainly not worried about it in any way, shape or form.”

I think Coco is the best defender I have ever seen. Comparable to Nadal in her ability to fish balls back from extreme positions. She moves so, so well.

Her forehand held up well against Sabalenka and didn't seem as bad as everyone says it is. I am not that familiar having never watched her that much so far. I was left wondering how her forehand would fair if she was slow-balled or fed junk to it. Where extreme grips fail is they don't provide great feel when it comes to hitting a consistent length, nor are they particularly good at dealing with junk.

What Brad is saying to himself (as coaches do in these situations) about Coco's grip is 'does she get away with it'? His verdict is yes she does so let's leave it. My verdict is, yes, she gets away with it, but at what cost. For me grips are fundamental and there is a price to pay for getting a grip wrong. And I don't care how stratospheric the player is. Sometimes players reach great heights despite coaching rather than because of it, but good coaching would have taken them a little further still.

[jimlosaltos]

WTA article:
The Gilbert playbook In July 2003, paired with Andy Roddick. In two months, he won the US Open. In August 2023, Gilbert paired with Coco Gauff. In less than 6 weeks, she won the US Open.

Excerpt on forehand:

And what of the much-discussed Gauff forehand -- will there be time in the offseason to change her extreme western grip?

“You can’t just change a grip without changing the arc of the swing, so that’s a big change,” he said. “My guess is, from what we’ve seen, we don’t need to.

“When I started with Andy Murray [in 2006], everybody was telling me, ‘He’s just a pusher.’ And yet he wins.

“Everybody mentions the forehand criticism about Coco, and yet she wins. I’m certainly not worried about it in any way, shape or form.”

Also:

How do Gilbert and Riba divide the coaching duties?

“Pere is very detail-oriented,” Gilbert said. “He puts in a lot of structure for the practice and the warmups. And we discuss X’s and O’s -- it’s nice to bounce things off somebody else. A lot of times, we just do quick little bullet points for Coco.”

“The scouting," Gauff said, “I think it’s incredible. He knows basically every player, probably just from commentating, knows how to play them. I think the scouting reports are quite accurate.”

https://www.wtatennis.com/news/3681735/the-gilbert-playbook-how-the-veteran-coach-led-gauff-to-a-us-open-win

[jimlosaltos]

That makes sense. As I watched the final I was amazed at how she just ran everything down and compensated for a loopy forehand. She can compensate with her foot speed for the time being. But as she gets older she will have to address the forehand with a technical change in some way. Otherwise, I cannot imagine she will be able to run like she did in the final for another 6 or 7 years.

We can already see Alcaraz stepping closer to the baseline to return serves. He cannot just use his legs to compensate all the time. Hopefully, Coco can make some kind of meaningful change.

BTW, my uncle a tennis coach in Mexico, told me that he talked to Kei Nishikori's former coach. Apparently, they tried to improve his forehand over and over again but he could not adapt.

The question is whether Coco will be able to adapt to a less extreme grip. Change gets harder as players get older. I am sure that it would have been MUCH easier to correct when she was a child than it is now.

I have faith in BG. What he's already done (along with Pere Riba) to help Coco is amazing.

Sidebar: In the third set when Coco got broken, I believe it was, Brad looked as if he was going to cry. Quite literally fighting back tears.

Coco cried in the end, happy tears

[arturohernandez]

My guess, Brad does very little with her forehand -- until the offseason.

A big make over in mid-season would undermine the teen's confidence -- and she's winning.

So, it will be, as BG told John, "More shape and margin" for a few months, then recraft it.

That makes sense. As I watched the final I was amazed at how she just ran everything down and compensated for a loopy forehand. She can compensate with her foot speed for the time being. But as she gets older she will have to address the forehand with a technical change in some way. Otherwise, I cannot imagine she will be able to run like she did in the final for another 6 or 7 years.

We can already see Alcaraz stepping closer to the baseline to return serves. He cannot just use his legs to compensate all the time. Hopefully, Coco can make some kind of meaningful change.

BTW, my uncle a tennis coach in Mexico, told me that he talked to Kei Nishikori's former coach. Apparently, they tried to improve his forehand over and over again but he could not adapt.

The question is whether Coco will be able to adapt to a less extreme grip. Change gets harder as players get older. I am sure that it would have been MUCH easier to correct when she was a child than it is now.

[jimlosaltos]

Certainly agree about Carlos Rodriguez and what he did technically with Henin's forehand. To me, the greatest technical improvement ever in pro tennis. I too loved Agassi's backhand, but I liked his forehand even more. To me it was his best shot. Still a great model. Tsitsipas to me has very similar technique to Andre, but he has added more elbow extension obviously.

My guess, Brad does very little with her forehand -- until the offseason.

A big make over in mid-season would undermine the teen's confidence -- and she's winning.

So, it will be, as BG told John, "More shape and margin" for a few months, then recraft it.

[stroke]

I think if there was someone they might consult is Carlos Rodriguez. He worked on Henin's forehand and serve using specific models.

Or Brad could call on Agassi. Agassi had a great forehand but it was not his best shot. I know everyone thinks he was balanced but I consider his backhand better than his forehand.

However, he was able to hit a great forehand anyway and I think it was in part because it was so simple.

Gauff's forehand seems long and complicated. Eventually, she will have to address the problem. Maybe Andre could help out. Another tactical person.

Oh and he is married to someone with a great forehand. Between the two of them they might lend some advice.

For now, it is great to see her advancing and playing better.

But the forehand still looks wonky and I am sure that Brad thinks they will have to address it sooner or later.

Certainly agree about Carlos Rodriguez and what he did technically with Henin's forehand. To me, the greatest technical improvement ever in pro tennis. I too loved Agassi's backhand, but I liked his forehand even more. To me it was his best shot. Still a great model. Tsitsipas to me has very similar technique to Andre, but he has added more elbow extension obviously.