Coco's Forehand: Some Hamburger with Your Sushi

[don_budge]

Obviously of no interest to anyone currently on the forum...but we once upon a time had an interesting discussion about grips. Grips matter...trust me.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/2683-jack-kramer-explains-various-grips

Grips Matter. But you don't have to take my word for it...

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Extreme western grips are rarely a good idea. Some players get away with an extreme western grips, but not many. The difficult thing for coaches is there will always be the odd world-class player out there that has an extreme grip or unusual technique, and developing players, even coaches, will site such examples to justify their own extreme technique. Very important coaches have good answers for students trying to justify extreme grips.

As I said somewhere else, maybe on this thread, making a poor forehand once it's established into a good forehand is nigh on impossible and I am sceptical any coach is going to be able to do it.

[jimlosaltos]

Latest critique, just for your collective interest -- Sports Illustrated, I believe it was Jon Wertheim, but not sure blamed Coco's grip for her forehand issues.

Said it Coco has such extreme Western grip she can use the same grip on her back hand.

As many of us here will recall, a very good player named Philipp Kohlschreiber did just that for years. Got to 16 on ATP.

Not sure her foot work and her off arm flying all over can be blamed on her grip, but what do I know?

[jimlosaltos]

Coco out in the first round to tiny Sofia Kenin, having a resurgence. Big disappointment for Coco.
6-4, 4-6, 6-2

Coco with 12 aces to 1 and 33 winners, and earned 10 BPs vs 6 -- yet lost.

Sofia is still only 24 yo (I had to double check that), recently connected with veteran Sharapova coach Michael Joyce, who may be contributing to a resurgence.

[jimlosaltos]

Serendipitously, the two players John compared -- Madison Keys and Coco Gauff -- just met in Eastbourne, a grass tune up.

Keys, now down to 25, won in straight sets 3,2.

"Keys’s upset of Gauff is her first grass-court win over a Top 10 player since she beat Angelique Kerber to win the 2014 Rothesay International final."

[doctorhl]

The speed of grass sure does make you shorten everything for recovery for the next shot. It would be interesting to see some side by side clips of a a forehand or backhand stroke on grass versus clay to see how much shortening or lengthening of a stroke players actually do. Fed, as the example of a long stroke, may or may not shorten/lengthen as much as other between surfaces.. It would really take high speed footage and elimination of incoming speed/spin and bounce variables to to do any real measuring and conclusions, but it would seem worthy to at least explore.

[jimlosaltos]

Alot of bs about her forehand in my opinion search my view in interactive forum and/or tour strokes.

Let's see if I can round up some TPN links:

Ah, here we go:
Tour Strokes: Coco Gauff Forehand
Analyzed by John Yandell

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/john_yandell/coco_gauff_forehand/

Discussion: Tour Strokes: Coco Gauff Forehand

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/83485-tour-strokes-coco-gauff-forehand

Excerpts by John, with lots more and video in the article.

"Coco doesn't do that—at least on the clips we have. Her shoulders rotate until they are parallel with the net. Then they stop virtually dead and only her arm completes the swing.

It seems like a two part swing. The body rotation ends and the arm has to take over. It's not a continuous full body motion. Possibly the need to do more with the arm causes her to miss, especially under pressure.

AND:

"So if the Gauff family asked me for advice about her forehand, (which they haven't), I'd leave her backswing alone, and focus on the left arm. Letting it relax and move back as the swing continues into the followthrough.

I'd take a look at what that does to the body rotation. If the rotation still looks stuck or limited, I'd give her an image of the rear shoulder continuing to rotate til it faces the net, modeled on one of the other players.

It doesn't necessarily have to rotate as far as Madison's, but it needs to keep moving. Then I'd ask Gauff to imagine the forehand motion with a smooth continuous torso rotation—like her body and racket were moving together in sync. That would be a very interesting experiment.

Maybe this hitch in her forward swing will correct itself over time. Or maybe it'll stay and she'll just get more confident and it won't matter. The future will answer.

[johnyandell]

Alot of bs about her forehand in my opinion search my view in interactive forum and/or tour strokes.

[jimlosaltos]

Coco will be the 7th seed at Wimbledon:

7. Coco Gauff
2023 Record: 24-10
2023 Titles: 1 (Auckland)
Career Grass Record: 13-6
Best Grass Result: Round of 16, 2019 & 2021 Wimbledon
2022 Wimbledon: Third Round (l. Anisimova)

Notable stat: Among the Top 10 players, only Elena Rybakina (90.9%) and Petra Kvitova (74.5%) have a higher winning percentage at Wimbledon than Gauff (72.7%).
https://www.wtatennis.com/news/35601...-16-contenders

[jimlosaltos]

Chris Everett offers thoughts on how Coco can fix her forehand.

Richard Pagliaro | Tennis_Now | Wednesday, June 28, 2023

https://www.tennisnow.com/Blogs/NET-POSTS/June-2023-(1)/Evert-Two-Fixes-For-Gauff-s-Forehand.aspx

"In a zoom call with the media today to promote ESPN's Wimbledon coverage starting at 6 a.m. on Monday, July 3rd on ESPN, Evert praised Gauff as a player with multiple major weapons.

"Elite opponents can rush Gauff into forehand errors as her expansive takeback requires time to generate her forehand in contrast to her more compact backhand backswing.

Additionally, Gauff's extreme western grip on her forehand means opponent sometimes slide short slices and drop shots as digging out low balls can be challenging with that extreme grip.

Evert suggests two fixes for the Gauff forehand:

*Work on shortening the backswing.

*Accelerate through the shot and move the contact point out in front rather than allowing the ball to get on her hip as it sometimes does on the forehand.

"The only trigger point for her will be the forehand," Evert said. "Everybody talks about it. It's probably in her head by now.

"On a fast surface like grass, you've got to hit the ball in front of you and you've got to accelerate. She has a tendency to decelerate at times when she's nervous. She has a tendency to hit off the back foot.

"If she can get that forehand going, like Iga, very similar grips, but Iga shortens her swings and accelerates better. If she can get her forehand to be a little bit more like Iga's, I think she'll have the complete game."

Eighteen-time Grand Slam singles champion Evert said she's convinced Gauff will win Grand Slam titles.

"She's going to win a Grand Slam. I mean, she's so young still, it's going to happen for her eventually. Who knows, it could happen this Wimbledon.""

[jimlosaltos]

Tough debut at WTA Tour Finals for Coco, but perhaps a good learning experience.

Lost her two round robin matches. while she and buddy/ partner Jessie Pegula lost all 3 doubles matches. Pegula had a great run, to end the year tho, until she ran into Sabalenka today.

[jimlosaltos]

Perhaps the main goal when working with a suspect forehand is to stabilize it. It's usually the best one can hope for. I don't see Coco's forehand ever being any good.

I think suspect serves are slightly easier (though still difficult) because at least you always have a static base to work with. Forehands are so situational (played from all areas of the court with so many stances),which makes things more difficult.

The start players gets off to with forehands and serves is absolutely critical. Grass roots coaching is a lot more important than people think.

Let's see if Coco's forehands develops into a great shot. Time will tell. I would put money it will always be suspect.

Thanks for feedback.

Hope Coco can improve that one shot (and her serve consistency). Great athlete, speed, world class backhand.

[stotty]

Is 18 yo too late? Not being argumentative I wonder.

Is a forehand easier to improve post joining the tour than a serve?

Perhaps the main goal when working with a suspect forehand is to stabilize it. It's usually the best one can hope for. I don't see Coco's forehand ever being any good.

I think suspect serves are slightly easier (though still difficult) because at least you always have a static base to work with. Forehands are so situational (played from all areas of the court with so many stances),which makes things more difficult.

The start players gets off to with forehands and serves is absolutely critical. Grass roots coaching is a lot more important than people think.

Let's see if Coco's forehands develops into a great shot. Time will tell. I would put money it will always be suspect.

[jimlosaltos]

This is a post by an active online follower of the WTA. I know nothing about this guy except that he seems to know more about the WTA than anybody not on the tour, and possibly a number of them.

Describes the Fort Worth matches of Gauff as extremely bad. Another viewer chimes in on her forehand failing.

One issue MIGHT be that the courts are described by players as excruciatingly slow. Thus big hitters like Sabalenka and Iga are doing well, while others aren't. One losing a round noted "The courts are so slow, if you hit a regular rally ball it sits there like a grapefruit and gets crushed. I guess you have to be aggressive early."


~~~~~~~~~

Oleg S. (@AnnaK_4ever) tweeted at 7:15 PM on Thu, Nov 03, 2022:
I profoundly apologize to any and all players involved in any match I have ever described as terrible, hideous, worst ever etc.
Nothing -- NOTHING -- I have seen in the past comes close to what Gauff and Kasatkina produced tonight.
(https://twitter.com/AnnaK_4ever/stat...yDHwtkjQg&s=03)

Response: by some random dude:

LMMFAO. no kidding. i have no idea how i made it thru that entire match tonight.
the Forehand wing from Gauff was hard to watch. if u told me that a player in 15k event had that bad of a day with their fh, i would have told u that they should look for a new hobby!

[jimlosaltos]

It's very difficult to make a good forehand out of a weak one once the shot has become established. There is something about a forehand that is hard to change in that regard. Not that Coco's forehand is weak necessarily, but it could be a whole lot better.

Is 18 yo too late? Not being argumentative I wonder.

Is a forehand easier to improve post joining the tour than a serve?