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Is Western Grip Making Pro Forehands Vulnerable?

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  • Is Western Grip Making Pro Forehands Vulnerable?

    NYT's article by Stuart Miller.


    Excerpts:

    "Attacking the forehand is more common than in the past because of changes in technology and playing style, said Wayne Ferreira, Frances Tiafoe’s coach. Modern rackets and strings enabled players to hit stronger backhands, while the desire to further amp up the forehand has led most players to more extreme Western grips, he said.

    “The reason forehands are worse today is because of the grip — you can create more pace, but you’ll have a harder time controlling it,” Ferreira said, blaming training and development that locks in these grips when players are young. “Frances has a Western grip forehand, and I think it’s too far over, but sometimes it’s too hard to change it back.”

    When to attack the forehand?

    "Players have to choose their spots, Ferreira cautioned. “Players do very well hitting inside out forehands from the backhand corner, but because of the grip they don’t do as well hitting forehands on the run as they used to,” he said. Ferreira said there were certain players (like Matteo Berrettini) with huge forehands where you need to be more careful and others (like Alexander Zverev and Jannik Sinner) where you’re more likely to gain a free point. “But even with Berrettini you can go to the forehand when he’s not expecting it.”

    Attack forehands with serve:

    Sometimes players begin targeting the forehand with their serve. If a player has a big backswing, Brandon Nakashima tries exploiting that by tossing in more serves to the forehand. “They will be more prone to mis-hits or shorter returns,” he explained.

    Russell said the shorter backhand swing made it easier to absorb a first serve’s power and block it back. Ferreira noted that while “you have to mix it up a lot,” most players prepared to return serve by setting up for the backhand, so players must adjust to serves to the forehand. (One-handed backhands require a more notable grip shift in those moments.)

  • #2
    I think it's a trade off. Bigger forehands will undoubtedly equal more mistakes...but would you really want to periodically play into Rafa's forehand hoping for an error? Not sure I would.

    When I go to Wimbledon I am amazed how far grips have gone round, with some players using full westerns. I am also amazed how well they manage to get under lows balls and hit great shots. The problem is, sliced approach shots, even on grass, are seldom used and as a result few players get challenged on the forehand wing by opponents approaching the net.
    Stotty

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by stotty View Post
      I think it's a trade off. Bigger forehands will undoubtedly equal more mistakes...but would you really want to periodically play into Rafa's forehand hoping for an error? Not sure I would.

      When I go to Wimbledon I am amazed how far grips have gone round, with some players using full westerns. I am also amazed how well they manage to get under lows balls and hit great shots. The problem is, sliced approach shots, even on grass, are seldom used and as a result few players get challenged on the forehand wing by opponents approaching the net.
      Yes, it seems like so many have very western grips, like Berrettini, Khachanov. Tiafoe, Fritz. Nadal not nearly was western as those guys. And I have never seen anyone who can pulverize a top shelf slice backhand with a forehand like Nadal.

      Comment


      • #4
        I get that players want the best shot when they are young. The balls bounce high and the western allows me to hit it with topspin and return it. But a good slicer will pick on that shot over and over again.

        I get the upside but wouldn't a semi-western be a better compromise. Nadal gets pretty good topspin and he is not as extreme. I also wonder how much the extreme grips might lead to injuries.

        Federer hit his forehand with plenty of topspin. He also had great versatility. Is there a counter example here? Anyone out there hitting with a semi or even eastern and faring well?


        Another option. Maybe an odd player might decide to slice on both sides. Tatjana Maria seems to be using it and having some success. Maybe there is a boy who is not quite as topspin talented that could try and drive players crazy with slice off of both sides.

        Used to be that people would try things out to see if there might be another way. Now they are all carbon copies.

        Just wondering...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by arturohernandez View Post
          I get that players want the best shot when they are young. The balls bounce high and the western allows me to hit it with topspin and return it. But a good slicer will pick on that shot over and over again.

          I get the upside but wouldn't a semi-western be a better compromise. Nadal gets pretty good topspin and he is not as extreme. I also wonder how much the extreme grips might lead to injuries.

          Federer hit his forehand with plenty of topspin. He also had great versatility. Is there a counter example here? Anyone out there hitting with a semi or even eastern and faring well?


          Another option. Maybe an odd player might decide to slice on both sides. Tatjana Maria seems to be using it and having some success. Maybe there is a boy who is not quite as topspin talented that could try and drive players crazy with slice off of both sides.

          Used to be that people would try things out to see if there might be another way. Now they are all carbon copies.

          Just wondering...
          I certainly don't think all slicing off both sides is a possibility. Dimitrov to me has about the best slice in tennis, now that Roger is out, and even his superb slice is exposed like it was yesterday vs Medvedev. Certainly it is a great viable change of pace shot, particularly when knifed short to lure an opponent into an awkward shot, or the knifed down the line sidespin type slice. Certainly to me Dimitrov's slice bh is a clear step above other 1 handers(1 handers clearly seem to have better slice bh than 2 handers) such as Thiem or Tsitsipas, or even Stan.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by arturohernandez View Post
            I get that players want the best shot when they are young. The balls bounce high and the western allows me to hit it with topspin and return it. But a good slicer will pick on that shot over and over again.

            I get the upside but wouldn't a semi-western be a better compromise. Nadal gets pretty good topspin and he is not as extreme. I also wonder how much the extreme grips might lead to injuries.

            Federer hit his forehand with plenty of topspin. He also had great versatility. Is there a counter example here? Anyone out there hitting with a semi or even eastern and faring well?


            Another option. Maybe an odd player might decide to slice on both sides. Tatjana Maria seems to be using it and having some success. Maybe there is a boy who is not quite as topspin talented that could try and drive players crazy with slice off of both sides.

            Used to be that people would try things out to see if there might be another way. Now they are all carbon copies.

            Just wondering...
            Nadal & Thiem clearly show that a full western grip is not necessary to produce loads of topspin. Pre wrist injury Thiem hit a few midcourse approaches at 4,500 RPMs. Tsisipas is among the top spinners with his, is it Eastern forehand grip.

            As for backhand slice, you bring up a good point that for some odd reason top ATP players can't hit them well. Although Tsitsipas has a one-handed backhand, he can only hit the "chop floater" that characterizes two-handers slice.

            Thiem has a one-hander but didn't change out of a double until a teen ager, and he slices like a two-hander.

            Fed had (pains me to use past tense multiple slices: 1) Floater deep that helped him beat Djoko at early US Open 2) Hard low slice that baffled Agassi at US Open "Andre ' I didn't have any paint left on my racket head after trying to hit his slice", 3) The midcoast "teaser" he used to either draw opponents to the net on his terms, or baffle the "Giants" like Isner by moving them diagonally, following the slice by going deep, wide to their forehand, 4) An odd DTL "drive" slice where he ended up with both arms back high like a soaring hawk 5) And he hit drop shots out of the same regular motion.

            Off hand, Dimitrov is the only current ATP player I can think of that has variety in his slice. Must be somebody but I can't think of them.
            Last edited by jimlosaltos; 10-30-2022, 09:43 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by arturohernandez View Post
              I Another option. Maybe an odd player might decide to slice on both sides. Tatjana Maria seems to be using it and having some success. Maybe there is a boy who is not quite as topspin talented that could try and drive players crazy with slice off of both sides.

              Used to be that people would try things out to see if there might be another way. Now they are all carbon copies.

              Just wondering...
              Off hand, Fabrice Santoro comes to mind. "The Magican" could baffle very good players with change of pace, slice forehands. Not a half bad career at all. And fun to watch.
              Official tennis bio information on Fabrice Santoro including personal and professional info.


              Tangentially, Alcaraz has toyed with a faking a drop shot and driving a short slice forehand deep ala late-career Fed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jimlosaltos View Post

                Nadal & Thiem clearly show that a full western grip is not necessary to produce loads of topspin. Pre wrist injury Thiem hit a few midcourse approaches at 4,500 RPMs. Tsisipas is among the top spinners with his, is it Eastern forehand grip.

                As for backhand slice, you bring up a good point that for some odd reason top ATP players can't hit them well. Although Tsitsipas has a one-handed backhand, he can only hit the "chop floater" that characterizes two-handers slice.

                Thiem has a one-hander but didn't change out of a double until a teen ager, and he slices like a two-hander.

                Fed had (pains me to use past tense multiple slices: 1) Floater deep that helped him beat Djoko at early US Open 2) Hard low slice that baffled Agassi at US Open "Andre ' I didn't have any paint left on my racket head after trying to hit his slice", 3) The midcoast "teaser" he used to either draw opponents to the net on his terms, or baffle the "Giants" like Isner by moving them diagonally, following the slice by going deep, wide to their forehand, 4) An odd DTL "drive" slice where he ended up with both arms back high like a soaring hawk 5) And he hit drop shots out of the same regular motion.

                Off hand, Dimitrov is the only current ATP player I can think of that has variety in his slice. Must be somebody but I can't think of them.

                Could not agree more about Grigor, the absolute best slice bh other than Fed. Minority opinion, way outside the box, maybe crazy, I actually would put the massive unachieving Tomic at number 3, and the best slice backhand I have seen from a 2 hander. Also agree about Santoro, right there to me with Tomic as the best 2 hander using the slice bh. Unrelated side note, the best forehand slice of all time to me, Santoro.
                Last edited by stroke; 10-30-2022, 10:58 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jimlosaltos View Post

                  Off hand, Dimitrov is the only current ATP player I can think of that has variety in his slice. Must be somebody but I can't think of them.
                  Dan Evans

                  Stotty

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stotty View Post

                    Dan Evans
                    Ah, good call ! Thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by stotty View Post

                      Dan Evans
                      In fairness, we should mention Ons Jabeur since nobody in tennis hits with as much variety as her, perhaps since Fabrice Santoro.

                      She's a veritable Vegematic - forehand slices, backhand slices, drop shots that go higher than some weekend hacker's lobs <g>.

                      A personal favorite she shares with Fed is a drop shot service return.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There are a few good sliced backhands out there. Andy Murray's is certainly excellent and much better than most. Ash Barty's (was) is also very good. Fognini has a good sliced backhand when called upon. The shot is still out there. It's just the two-handed players have far less need for it than their one-handed counterparts.
                        Stotty

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jimlosaltos View Post

                          Nadal & Thiem clearly show that a full western grip is not necessary to produce loads of topspin. Pre wrist injury Thiem hit a few midcourse approaches at 4,500 RPMs. Tsisipas is among the top spinners with his, is it Eastern forehand grip.

                          As for backhand slice, you bring up a good point that for some odd reason top ATP players can't hit them well. Although Tsitsipas has a one-handed backhand, he can only hit the "chop floater" that characterizes two-handers slice.

                          Thiem has a one-hander but didn't change out of a double until a teen ager, and he slices like a two-hander.

                          Fed had (pains me to use past tense multiple slices: 1) Floater deep that helped him beat Djoko at early US Open 2) Hard low slice that baffled Agassi at US Open "Andre ' I didn't have any paint left on my racket head after trying to hit his slice", 3) The midcoast "teaser" he used to either draw opponents to the net on his terms, or baffle the "Giants" like Isner by moving them diagonally, following the slice by going deep, wide to their forehand, 4) An odd DTL "drive" slice where he ended up with both arms back high like a soaring hawk 5) And he hit drop shots out of the same regular motion.

                          Off hand, Dimitrov is the only current ATP player I can think of that has variety in his slice. Must be somebody but I can't think of them.
                          I think it has to do with technology. The rackets and strings reward topspin at a very young age. Look at Shapo videos of when he was 8. A beautiful one handed backhand. Slice never developed until recently.

                          So they bang their way through the juniors until it doesn't work anymore. Then they have to learn slice.

                          Only one good young slicer I can think of who made it to the top: Ash Barty. The top women do not slice well. And the top men either.

                          There is an opening here!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by stotty View Post
                            There are a few good sliced backhands out there. Andy Murray's is certainly excellent and much better than most. Ash Barty's (was) is also very good. Fognini has a good sliced backhand when called upon. The shot is still out there. It's just the two-handed players have far less need for it than their one-handed counterparts.
                            Hadn't seen your comment. Yes, they are three very good ones in a sea of not very good ones.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              How would a modern day Fabrice do? I think he or she might really go higher than we think.

                              Comment

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