1hbh topspin through slice or vice versa, practice tips

[arturohernandez]

I have been thinking about this for a while. (johnyandell has a few articles showing old school strokes where the old 1hbh drive was more like a flat slice. In the past, the slice and topspin backhands were much more similar. However, recently the two shots have diverged more and more. To me most of the players today learned the 1hbh topspin first and then incorporated a slice. Thiem and Shapo would be prime examples. But there are others that to me look like they had to learn how to slice after they learned topspin.

Fed would be the counter example. He for all intents and purposes would have just sliced his whole life but realized that he needed topspin to play at the highest levels. Still I would contend that his topspin backhand looks like it takes the base of the slice and then modifies it. He even bends his elbow more than others.

My daughter has been hitting one handed for a while and her topspin continues to improve. But her slice is still the shot she will fall back on during a match and under pressure. It is fine by me as she usually tells me that she just hits whatever bothers her opponent more. With girls that hit a 2hbh that would be a slice that stays low.

We have been doing drills where she only hits topspin. Either hand fed or basket fed drills.

The question I have is whether anyone has tried a drill where a player alternates between both shots. My thinking is that rather than drilling two different shots, the player would be asked to alternate for some time. Then they will learn to mix both shots. It is a bit artificial but it would only be for maybe 5 minutes.

I think that by alternating in practice you kind of create a motor skill that allows the player to transition from one shot to the other. Right now she hits almost all topspin in practice but then will sometimes revert to all slice.

My idea is that it is important to teach the player how to learn to mix both shots. In the psych literature, they call it massed vs. distributed practice. Basically, if you just practice three different things for 10 mins each or mix three different things for 10 mins, you get better performance when things are mixed over a longer period of time. In this case, it would be mixing slice and topspin.

I realize this might depend on how advanced a player is. We might want to concentrate on one thing at an early stage or when trying to make a change.

My daughter has a well established tospspin and slice backhand. The question is whether I should ask her to artificially mix them either by alternating or by just blurting out which one she is going to hit.

Any thoughts?

[jimlosaltos]

I have been thinking about this for a while. (johnyandell has a few articles showing old school strokes where the old 1hbh drive was more like a flat slice. In the past, the slice and topspin backhands were much more similar. However, recently the two shots have diverged more and more. To me most of the players today learned the 1hbh topspin first and then incorporated a slice. Thiem and Shapo would be prime examples. But there are others that to me look like they had to learn how to slice after they learned topspin.

Fed would be the counter example. He for all intents and purposes would have just sliced his whole life but realized that he needed topspin to play at the highest levels. Still I would contend that his topspin backhand looks like it takes the base of the slice and then modifies it. He even bends his elbow more than others.

My daughter has been hitting one handed for a while and her topspin continues to improve. But her slice is still the shot she will fall back on during a match and under pressure. It is fine by me as she usually tells me that she just hits whatever bothers her opponent more. With girls that hit a 2hbh that would be a slice that stays low.

We have been doing drills where she only hits topspin. Either hand fed or basket fed drills.

The question I have is whether anyone has tried a drill where a player alternates between both shots. My thinking is that rather than drilling two different shots, the player would be asked to alternate for some time. Then they will learn to mix both shots. It is a bit artificial but it would only be for maybe 5 minutes.

I think that by alternating in practice you kind of create a motor skill that allows the player to transition from one shot to the other. Right now she hits almost all topspin in practice but then will sometimes revert to all slice.

My idea is that it is important to teach the player how to learn to mix both shots. In the psych literature, they call it massed vs. distributed practice. Basically, if you just practice three different things for 10 mins each or mix three different things for 10 mins, you get better performance when things are mixed over a longer period of time. In this case, it would be mixing slice and topspin.

I realize this might depend on how advanced a player is. We might want to concentrate on one thing at an early stage or when trying to make a change.

My daughter has a well established tospspin and slice backhand. The question is whether I should ask her to artificially mix them either by alternating or by just blurting out which one she is going to hit.

Any thoughts?

My weekend-hacker, observer perspective, with zero, unqualified input on HOW to teach her <g>

Goal of practice that mixed the two seems logical to me given problems even some top pros have doing that. One can see the awkwardness in mixing topspin and slice in Tsitsipas's struggles with his backhand slice. While Fed had several variations, Tsitsi can only hit the floater, without any bite. When that works, it gives him lots of time to hit his round-around-forehand. When he faces someone like Alcaraz that can hit it DTL with power, he's in trouble. And the stroke is so different than his normal backhand that it is telegraphed to his opponent.

Fed used that "floater" to beat young Djokovic at one US Open, but the knifed slice to no-man's land was his main tool in almost (sigh) winning their last Wimbledon final. Fed also uses that to get his dominant record against "The Giants" (Ivo/ Raonic/ Isner) by moving them diagonally, i.e. following slice to draw them forward with a deeper shot to their forehand.

As I recall, John/ TPN measured spin on Fed's BHD knifed slice at over 5,000 RPMs. I also remember Agassi saying after his USO loss to Fed, something like "He had me scrapping shots off the court until there was no paint left on my racket."

Then there is a third variation, where Fed hits a soft shot just short enough to tempt his opponent to the net while low enough to make the approach difficult.

Sigh. So much to work on. Good luck with your daughter's practice <g>.

[stroke]

Fed to me had the best slice ever. He could just do anything with it he wanted to. McEnroe was close.

[jimlosaltos]

Fed to me had the best slice ever. He could just do anything with it he wanted to. McEnroe was close.

Agreed !

[glacierguy]

I occasionally drill 1hbh topspin, alternating between defensive and offensive shots, but that is done off basically the same feed ball. I think it would be difficult to feed an alternating topspin/slice 1hbh drill, because for me, the slice is a response to a ball that's pushing me deeper, whereas the topspin is off the front foot. I will rally crosscourt backhands and just play slice or topspin depending on the incoming ball. Having said that, I will approach net off a front foot slice backhand, so maybe it is possible! Let me know how you get on.

[doctorhl]

I have been thinking about this for a while. (johnyandell has a few articles showing old school strokes where the old 1hbh drive was more like a flat slice. In the past, the slice and topspin backhands were much more similar. However, recently the two shots have diverged more and more. To me most of the players today learned the 1hbh topspin first and then incorporated a slice. Thiem and Shapo would be prime examples. But there are others that to me look like they had to learn how to slice after they learned topspin.

Fed would be the counter example. He for all intents and purposes would have just sliced his whole life but realized that he needed topspin to play at the highest levels. Still I would contend that his topspin backhand looks like it takes the base of the slice and then modifies it. He even bends his elbow more than others.

My daughter has been hitting one handed for a while and her topspin continues to improve. But her slice is still the shot she will fall back on during a match and under pressure. It is fine by me as she usually tells me that she just hits whatever bothers her opponent more. With girls that hit a 2hbh that would be a slice that stays low.

We have been doing drills where she only hits topspin. Either hand fed or basket fed drills.

The question I have is whether anyone has tried a drill where a player alternates between both shots. My thinking is that rather than drilling two different shots, the player would be asked to alternate for some time. Then they will learn to mix both shots. It is a bit artificial but it would only be for maybe 5 minutes.

I think that by alternating in practice you kind of create a motor skill that allows the player to transition from one shot to the other. Right now she hits almost all topspin in practice but then will sometimes revert to all slice.

My idea is that it is important to teach the player how to learn to mix both shots. In the psych literature, they call it massed vs. distributed practice. Basically, if you just practice three different things for 10 mins each or mix three different things for 10 mins, you get better performance when things are mixed over a longer period of time. In this case, it would be mixing slice and topspin.

I realize this might depend on how advanced a player is. We might want to concentrate on one thing at an early stage or when trying to make a change.

My daughter has a well established tospspin and slice backhand. The question is whether I should ask her to artificially mix them either by alternating or by just blurting out which one she is going to hit.

Any thoughts?

Fully agree with mixing. It will help her not only groove the strokes, it will help her learn which incoming balls will work better with a slice or topspin response.Also, I would practice alternating those two strokes from a feed that takes her inside the baseline to see how things respond. Plus, if you mix in a dropshot with the same backswing motion at that position, you can become a triple threat. Even just one successful dropshot will make the opponent respect the short shot and get off their heels or at least quit camping out so deep behind their baseline.

[doctorhl]

Everyone can play a horizontal game( side to side), but few can also play a vertical game. Fed could force an opponent into a vertical game with dropshots, side T crosscourts or closing into the net with various approaches.

[doctorhl]

Arturo, here is an extreme example of how a pro can get away with a winning 10 foot high drop shot due mostly to backhand preparation and accelerated followthrough deception.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fMQOqmp8UA

[jimlosaltos]

Arturo, here is an extreme example of how a pro can get away with a winning 10 foot high drop shot due mostly to backhand preparation and accelerated followthrough deception.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fMQOqmp8UA

Ah, the Berdych dropper! Vinage Fed from Indian Wells. Fond memories for me, not so much for Tomas I suspect Thanks for sharing.

[arturohernandez]

Thanks everyone for the advice! Very helpful! johnyandell glacierguy jimlosaltos doctorhl stroke

Here is a video. Her slice was floating a bit but it is an artificial drill in which she is mixing when she normally might not do so deliberately. I figured that everyone here loves to dissect video. My daughter is in the near court. She is hitting with a college player.

Video is too big to upload. So here it is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cqv-gXWan_hTT0Pgd4Cp8xMp7oM1W65L/view?usp=sharing

[doctorhl]

Great strokes. Hard to comment because a camera with a higher frame rate is needed to capture some of the critical moments( unless one has the experienced eye like John, Stroke, Stotty, Klacr and others who can pick up the info with that low frame rate). At around three clicks on second seven, she begins the forward movement of her backhand slice with the racket face pointing down and her elbow up. Perhaps she could get a little steeper approach by keeping the elbow a little lower, which will require contacting the ball more toward the inside of the front leg. The steeper approach will keep the ball from flying up so much, but still allow a hard swing. A very slight grip adjustment toward the backhand might also help. Look at archives for racket forward swing path that can be somewhere between classic Tim Henman and extreme Roger Federer.

There is a slight difference in strike zone distance from the Fed slice to topspin backhand, but that drill will help her feet naturally adjust to the difference. She is at the level now where the information to extract really benefits from a camera with a higher frame rate. John can direct you to the best camera for the money to capture movement and methods to view or export. These cameras make it easy to edit out the hundreds of frames you capture, but don’t need with just a few button clicks located on the camera.

[arturohernandez]

Great points doctorhl! I think the adjustment of her racket head face will help on both topspin and slice. I will try and report back!