Raducanu's Serve

[glacierguy]

This image was in a BBC online article recently. Problems.

[jimlosaltos]

This image was in a BBC online article recently. Problems.

Because no shoulder/ long-axis rotation?

[seano]

That's the way I see it. No ISR

[johnyandell]

Yep.

[johnyandell]

How many pro coaches even know what that is?!!

[seano]

John -

That's scary to think if that's the case.

[stotty]

I think more coaches these days seem to know about ISR and what it is. After all it's very easy to identify and takes very little understanding. But as I have said before, it's one thing 'knowing' and quite another for a coach to install these things that aren't naturally there. I have full ISR but was never taught it. Back in the 70's it was something that was identified as a key component. For a lot of performance players, especially men, ISR will happen by default, assuming they have the correct grip and contact point.

There is little doubt in my mind that tour players who do not have full ISR or only partial ISR have had it pointed out to them, the problem is they haven't been able to rectify it. Now why is that? Is it because their incorrect ISR is so engrained even players with high level ability cannot overcome it? We all know the power of muscle memory. Or is it because coaches are using the wrong correction methods in their coaching? It would be interesting to know.

[glacierguy]

I've always thought US men had superior throws to UK men (think I've mentioned that briefly before), which boils down to superior ISR. It's strange in a way, because baseball and cricket require similar skills at the fundamental level. I was wondering whether the better ISR arises because US men grow up throwing a football, which is much heavier than baseballs or cricket balls. From my limited experience of throwing an american football, ISR is required to a) impart enough force and b) impart spin on the ball? And sorry for the massive generalizations in this post!

[johnyandell]

I think Stotty is being too kind to a lot of coaches--or maybe the level of knowledge is better in GB than here. In this country most coaches have a vague concept of "pronation" but don't really understand the way the arm, hand and racket move thru the upward/outward swing.

[jimlosaltos]

I think Stotty is being too kind to a lot of coaches--or maybe the level of knowledge is better in GB than here. In this country most coaches have a vague concept of "pronation" but don't really understand the way the arm, hand and racket move thru the upward/outward swing.

One anecdote I have confirms that. I had a fairly intense discussion with a tennis coach that runs an online teaching program some time back, pre-covid. I tried to politely ask if his use of pronation fully represented the motion since the term refers to the forearm and not the entire long-axis rotation/ ISR. He got rather agitated in his disagreement, rather than clarifying it or explaining it. Seems I touched a "religious" nerve. Last I checked, which is a while back, he got a fair amount of traffic through YouTube.

I don't want to name him because my point is not to publicly ridicule him, nor breath the embers of the disagreement back to life. Just saying that there is a 'religious' group that seems more fixated on where the palm is facing at the end how one gets there.

[jeffreycounts]

Something off with her right foot position when she brings it forward. It's too far to the right of her left foot. Her lright leg is overlapping her left leg. I think it's causing her to be overrated. too. Juan Carlos racket and hand are in line with his front arm. Emma's arm and racket seem rotated too far towards the left fence.

She's got a good coil there for sure, but I like JC's much more moderate leg position.

Also in the second clip it really looks like she is doing the Andy Murray snap the wrist forward -- based on the strings facing the ground rather than rotating out toward the side fence.

platform.jpg

[jeffreycounts]

I also thinks this looks weird. Her body is going forward to the left while JC is going forward but not off to the left. I think that's from the overrotation. also her waist is full on facing the net while JC's wast is still facing more to the side pointing towards the camera. Finally you can see how JC's arm has internally rotated at the shoulder while Emma's arm is forward but not internally rotated. from the shoulder. Her strings are facing the ground while JC's strings are facing the side.


image_1229.jpg emma_rotation.jpg

[seano]

Jeffrey -

Excellent photos and diagnosis.

[doctorhl]

I've always thought US men had superior throws to UK men (think I've mentioned that briefly before), which boils down to superior ISR. It's strange in a way, because baseball and cricket require similar skills at the fundamental level. I was wondering whether the better ISR arises because US men grow up throwing a football, which is much heavier than baseballs or cricket balls. From my limited experience of throwing an american football, ISR is required to a) impart enough force and b) impart spin on the ball? And sorry for the massive generalizations in this post!

To take the generalization even further.....: using external arm rotation in preparation for the javelin throw, the knee flex/ ext, shoulder rotation of a volleyball spike and internal arm rotation of a football or baseball throw.....would youth experience in any of these help or hinder a tennis serve?? Sport crossover seems logical, but little data yet to confirm it. I do know that many athletes have poor external rotational flexibility which hampers ISR. I think tennis has caught up with baseball (at the pro level at least) with shoulder strength/flexibility conditioning, but not so much emphasis at the younger levels. Many I know of in my tennis generation now have rotator cuff problems or elbow/ wrist problems because of poor mechanics/conditioning which led to Incorrect sequencing of joint loads.

Anyone else have this experience?....Swinging a wooden racket required joint loads for linear, classic swings. Switching over the years to lighter, composite rackets eventually enabled achievement of an ATP style swing, but changing those joint loads in mid life without a serious, concurrent shoulder/arm conditioning plan led to injuries.

[jimlosaltos]

To take the generalization even further.....: using external arm rotation in preparation for the javelin throw, the knee flex/ ext, shoulder rotation of a volleyball spike and internal arm rotation of a football or baseball throw.....would youth experience in any of these help or hinder a tennis serve?? Sport crossover seems logical, but little data yet to confirm it. I do know that many athletes have poor external rotational flexibility which hampers ISR. I think tennis has caught up with baseball (at the pro level at least) with shoulder strength/flexibility conditioning, but not so much emphasis at the younger levels. Many I know of in my tennis generation now have rotator cuff problems or elbow/ wrist problems because of poor mechanics/conditioning which led to Incorrect sequencing of joint loads.

Anyone else have this experience?....Swinging a wooden racket required joint loads for linear, classic swings. Switching over the years to lighter, composite rackets eventually enabled achievement of an ATP style swing, but changing those joint loads in mid life without a serious, concurrent shoulder/arm conditioning plan led to injuries.

I'm just a lowly weekend hacker, but my wrist surgeon has plenty of experience with tennis players and other athletes at all levels.

He said something like "I wish I could strap all your wrists so they don't move when you play."