Madrid Open, Masters 1000

[glacierguy]

Those last three matches for Alcaraz couldn't have been more fortunate: recovering from injury Nadal; lacking matchplay Djokovic; lacking sleep Zverev. Good luck to him. And great drop shot.

[stotty]

Those last three matches for Alcaraz couldn't have been more fortunate: recovering from injury Nadal; lacking matchplay Djokovic; lacking sleep Zverev. Good luck to him. And great drop shot.

All true.

[jimlosaltos]

Question on Alcaraz's Returns Vs Djokovic & In General

Finally got to watch the Madrid semi between Alcaraz and Djokovic. One of several keys was how Carlos was able to get better and better throughout the match at winning points vs Novak's first serve. This is a pattern I've seen in Carlos play, not just on that Saturday.

Does anyone have an idea what's going on? Is he reading his opponent's serve better as the match progresses? Simply his timing getting better? Carlos changes his return positions a lot; is he taking away their best serves? Disrupting their rhythm?

Look at this progression:
.

In set 1, Djokovic won 90% of his first serves or 18/20

In set 2, Djokovic won 65% of his first serves or 15/23

In set 3, Djokovic won only 56% of his first serves of 24/43 -- a truly dismal service performance for a top player on any surface.

Getting out my abacus, Novak's percent won dropped by 34% points.

Why and/ or how?

[stotty]

Someone did a study on this once and found that return percentage generally goes as matches wear on. Players in the study claimed their ability to read serves went up as the match went on...and this was found even in cases where players had played multiple times before. I read the study yonks ago but will see if I can dig it out. It was based on top level county standard players, not world class players. County standard players (a UK term) are, however, very good...like to college players in the US I imagine.

Novak isn't the biggest server...more a placer. Once players get the hang of it, most of Novak's serves come back. He does work very well behind his serve though so anyone who wins a good percentage against him must be very good off the ground...and have power.

[doctorhl]

Question on Alcaraz's Returns Vs Djokovic & In General

Finally got to watch the Madrid semi between Alcaraz and Djokovic. One of several keys was how Carlos was able to get better and better throughout the match at winning points vs Novak's first serve. This is a pattern I've seen in Carlos play, not just on that Saturday.

Does anyone have an idea what's going on? Is he reading his opponent's serve better as the match progresses? Simply his timing getting better? Carlos changes his return positions a lot; is he taking away their best serves? Disrupting their rhythm?

Look at this progression:
.

In set 1, Djokovic won 90% of his first serves or 18/20

In set 2, Djokovic won 65% of his first serves or 15/23

In set 3, Djokovic won only 56% of his first serves of 24/43 -- a truly dismal service performance for a top player on any surface.

Getting out my abacus, Novak's percent won dropped by 34% points.

Why and/ or how?

I think maybe his timing improves. His feet are so incredibly fast and his forward, rotational swing so short, that he needs a little match time to adjust his timing because he loads up so early. An opponent needs to slip in those SHORT, angled serves toward the alleys in the deuce and ad courts ( ala Federer) to have a chance with Alcaraz’s feet!

[jimlosaltos]

I think maybe his timing improves. His feet are so incredibly fast and his forward, rotational swing so short, that he needs a little match time to adjust his timing because he loads up so early. An opponent needs to slip in those SHORT, angled serves toward the alleys in the deuce and ad courts ( ala Federer) to have a chance with Alcaraz’s feet!

Good input ! Thanks.

I was wondering the same thing about Fed serving short-and-wide in the ad court vs Alcaraz. Off hand, few ATP players seem to be able to hit that serve reliably -- at least that come to mind right now. Hitting the wide corner with great movement, yes, but not short and wide. Tsitsipas can... probably doesn't use it enough?

The only two people I've seen trouble Alcaraz were Seb Korda, who beat him in .... maybe it was Barcelona ... and de Minaur, who had two match points before losing in three sets. {Well, I watched Rafa beat Alcaraz in IW, but given that they played in a sandstorm, the main tactics were to squint. I went home with sand in my nose, in my pockets ... <g> }

Although they are extremely different players skill-wise and in tactics, both took Alcaraz wide to the forehand then went flat to the his backhand. Actually, come to think of it, Seb and de Minaur both played Carlos as if he was Rafa, ignoring his being right-handed. Curious, given his forehand.

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[doctorhl]

Good input ! Thanks.

I was wondering the same thing about Fed serving short-and-wide in the ad court vs Alcaraz. Off hand, few ATP players seem to be able to hit that serve reliably -- at least that come to mind right now. Hitting the wide corner with great movement, yes, but not short and wide. Tsitsipas can... probably doesn't use it enough?

The only two people I've seen trouble Alcaraz were Seb Korda, who beat him in .... maybe it was Barcelona ... and de Minaur, who had two match points before losing in three sets. {Well, I watched Rafa beat Alcaraz in IW, but given that they played in a sandstorm, the main tactics were to squint. I went home with sand in my nose, in my pockets ... <g> }

Although they are extremely different players skill-wise and in tactics, both took Alcaraz wide to the forehand then went flat to the his backhand. Actually, come to think of it, Seb and de Minaur both played Carlos as if he was Rafa, ignoring his being right-handed. Curious, given his forehand.

I want this serve, but can only slightly reproduce it every 30 tries. This clip has a wonderful rear view of that Federer ad court, shallow, curve left, bounce up and right kicker.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MRUiC4Kppg8

[jimlosaltos]

I want this serve, but can only slightly reproduce it every 30 tries. This clip has a wonderful rear view of that Federer ad court, shallow, curve left, bounce up and right kicker.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MRUiC4Kppg8

You and a few thousand other people <g>, although I suspect you succeed more than you're claiming <g>.

I like the Top Tennis material including this short. I wish they addressed "Twist", which Fed often hits.

A sidebar on Fed's kicker: I remember a match of Fed's vs Djokovic with Jim Courier, one of the few good TV tennis analysis in my opinion. Fed aced Novak up the T. Courier explained "Fed hit a 'fake kick serve toss T-serve". Left Novak flat footed.

The cat-and-mouse game between Fed serving and Novak returning is worth the price of admission on it's own.

One reason I liked that is having heard repeatedly from some, such as Gimmelstob, that "Fed hits everything out of one toss". Not so much. As Darren Cahill, who had a brief stint coaching Fed told me in an email exchange, "Fed has several tosses."

I recall some other "duels" by Fed with returners.

Watching on TV, during the Rogers Cup, Fed hit his kicker to Davydenko (an underrated player and returner IMHO). With his compact stroke, and light Prince racket, Davy stepped way in and hit an outright winner on ad out, down the line. After winning the point in the deuce court, Fed tried again -- same result, Won the deuce point tried again, third time with a bit more oomph. Davy shanked it. I laughed. Fed was darned well not going to let Davy beat him on his kicker, or back down and use a different serve <g>.

Then, years later in person at the Laver Cup, Chicago, saw Fed serving to Isner. Big John may not be a very good returner (or good returner at all) but he ran around as Fed tossed and smashed a 90+ mph forehand winner out of the doubles alley. Next time, serving ad in again in the ad court, Fed tossed, John moved, and Fed hit an awful looking serve -- as best I could tell in real time, he hit a short-armed slice second serve, striking the ball on the way up, in the T for an ace.

Move. Counter move. Counter-counter move.

I miss Fed, in case I haven't made that clear yet

[doctorhl]

Technique, immaculate footwork,tactics, focus. Grace and beauty in the heat of battle! Can you name masters who come to mind in other sports who possessed those same type tools to dominate? I would like to see if I would pick the same names.

[jimlosaltos]

Technique, immaculate footwork,tactics, focus. Grace and beauty in the heat of battle! Can you name masters who come to mind in other sports who possessed those same type tools to dominate? I would like to see if I would pick the same names.

That will require some thought.

Perhaps Sandy Koufax in baseball, although my memory of him is extremely hazy from childhood.

NFL has more Nick Kyrgios's than Feds, I fear. But I'll toss out Jerry Rice of SF 49ers, the original "GOAT".

[doctorhl]

That will require some thought.

Perhaps Sandy Koufax in baseball, although my memory of him is extremely hazy from childhood.

NFL has more Nick Kyrgios's than Feds, I fear. But I'll toss out Jerry Rice of SF 49ers, the original "GOAT".

As a mediocre academic/athlete, I choose Frank Ryan as my hero. Can anyone name a tennis equivalent?

https://artsci.case.edu/magazine/201...of-two-worlds/.

[jimlosaltos]

As a mediocre academic/athlete, I choose Frank Ryan as my hero. Can anyone name a tennis equivalent?

https://artsci.case.edu/magazine/201...of-two-worlds/.

That's a tough one. How about Mario Ancic, who beat Fed at Wimbledon? Illness forced him to quit tennis, went to Harvard Law and become an investment manager. ??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Ančić