Best examples of Type 3 BH's

[seano]

Djokovic is not the ideal example for the type 3 backhand. The best example is the young generation of Carlos Alcaraz, Sebastian Korda and Alex Zverev (to some degree).

The difference between Djokovic and Alcaraz/Korda is the outside position of the racquet to the hands. Djokovic's racquet isn't to the outside of the hands (think of a left handed Federer forehand at the start of the forward swing. Racquet is above and to the outside of the hand)

Important checkpoints:
1) hands waist level and far away from body - good stretch in shoulders
2) bottom arm is straight, top arm is slightly bent at the complettion of the backswing
3) arms NEVER go beyond the line of the shoulders
4) hips initiate the forward swing
5) bottom hand pulls forward in linear swing to transition point (speed)
6) top arm elbow straightens immediately (either by intentionally straightening it or by pushing down on the grip by the top hand)
7) top arm takes over after transition point creating vertical racquet head speed (spin)
8) top hand speeds up while bottom hand slows down (bottom arm will bend to allow for greater ISR of top arm)
9) top arm should be straight at contact allowing for maximum vertical racquet head speed
10) Trajectory of shot determined by depth of the "flip"

Thoughts?

Sean

[johnyandell]

Well thought out?

[jimlosaltos]

Djokovic is not the ideal example for the type 3 backhand. The best example is the young generation of Carlos Alcaraz, Sebastian Korda and Alex Zverev (to some degree).

The difference between Djokovic and Alcaraz/Korda is the outside position of the racquet to the hands. Djokovic's racquet isn't to the outside of the hands (think of a left handed Federer forehand at the start of the forward swing. Racquet is above and to the outside of the hand)

Important checkpoints:
1) hands waist level and far away from body - good stretch in shoulders
2) bottom arm is straight, top arm is slightly bent at the complettion of the backswing
3) arms NEVER go beyond the line of the shoulders
4) hips initiate the forward swing
5) bottom hand pulls forward in linear swing to transition point (speed)
6) top arm elbow straightens immediately (either by intentionally straightening it or by pushing down on the grip by the top hand)
7) top arm takes over after transition point creating vertical racquet head speed (spin)
8) top hand speeds up while bottom hand slows down (bottom arm will bend to allow for greater ISR of top arm)
9) top arm should be straight at contact allowing for maximum vertical racquet head speed
10) Trajectory of shot determined by depth of the "flip"

Thoughts?

Sean

How would you compare Nadal's backhand to your check list? In terms of velocity and ability to generate spin, he's certainly up there.

Thoughts?

Gets a few check marks from your list here on take back? This is from his semifinal vs Alcaraz in Indian Wells last month

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[seano]

Jimlosaltos -

Thanks for the question and the beautiful photo. There's no question that Nadal checks many of the boxes for his 2 handed backhand. The depth of his flip is amazing and is probably a product of growing up on the slow red clay. Any in-depth criticism of Nadal's backhand would just be nit-picking. The things Nadal can accomplice with a racquet in his hands are remarkable. His racquet head could be slightly more on the outside of his hands at the completion of his backswing. His lower arm is almost straight at contact but there have been plenty of great backhands with both arms straight at contact (Agassi comes to mind). The theory for the bottom arm bending as the top arm straightens is because a straight bottom arm at contact could possibly interfere with the top arm doing its job.

My checklist for the 2 handed backhand was just a summary of BGs 2 articles on the take back/dynamic slot and forward swing. You can find them under Biomechanics in the stroke analysis section. I find it helpful to remember parts of the bio-mechanics of strokes by writing out checklists like the one above. I have it on good authority that Carlos Alcaraz and Seb Korda are great examples of a true type 3 backhand.

Sean

[stotty]

Lovely thread.

Rick Macci said in one of his clips that in the take back phase the racket should to the outside of the body and the racket face should be on edge, or even better, 'slightly closed'. He never explained the benefit of having the racket face slightly closed. Does it create more torque, more flip?

And, yes, great photo. Now there is a player that really watches the ball.

[jimlosaltos]

Thanks both ! Made my day

[seano]

Last week, I was in Miami and watched Macci teach a student that he's had for many years. It was very interesting to watch the difference in the quality of shot with proper technique vs. improper technique. His emphasis on both sides was absolutely no backswing and initiate the swing from the hip. Student had just played a tournament with less than desired results. Trying to get the student to believe and trust the technique during competition, even after the many years.

Sean

[glacierguy]

Lovely thread.

Rick Macci said in one of his clips that in the take back phase the racket should to the outside of the body and the racket face should be on edge, or even better, 'slightly closed'. He never explained the benefit of having the racket face slightly closed. Does it create more torque, more flip?

From my readings and re-readings of BG's work, I think that if the racquet face is closed or partially closed at the end of the backswing, then player will be externally rotating the shoulder as the pull forward is initiated, to bring the racquet face square to the court. This would be a good thing, because you will get stretch shorten cycle effect as shoulder reverses movement and internally rotates through the forward part of the stroke.

[stotty]

From my readings and re-readings of BG's work, I think that if the racquet face is closed or partially closed at the end of the backswing, then player will be externally rotating the shoulder as the pull forward is initiated, to bring the racquet face square to the court. This would be a good thing, because you will get stretch shorten cycle effect as shoulder reverses movement and internally rotates through the forward part of the stroke.

Yes that would make sense. Macci seemed to suggest there was an added benefit to closing the racket as oppose being on edge. He just didn't spell out why. I never like to presume anything with biomechanics.

[seano]

My guess is that the advantage of a slightly closed racquet face at the completion of the backswing is that its a muscular enhancement and allows for a more direct hand path during the forward swing making it easier to pull the arm through the torso rotation.

Sean

[jimlosaltos]

Djokovic is not the ideal example for the type 3 backhand. The best example is the young generation of Carlos Alcaraz, Sebastian Korda and Alex Zverev (to some degree).

The difference between Djokovic and Alcaraz/Korda is the outside position of the racquet to the hands. Djokovic's racquet isn't to the outside of the hands (think of a left handed Federer forehand at the start of the forward swing. Racquet is above and to the outside of the hand)

Important checkpoints:
1) hands waist level and far away from body - good stretch in shoulders
2) bottom arm is straight, top arm is slightly bent at the complettion of the backswing
3) arms NEVER go beyond the line of the shoulders
4) hips initiate the forward swing
5) bottom hand pulls forward in linear swing to transition point (speed)
6) top arm elbow straightens immediately (either by intentionally straightening it or by pushing down on the grip by the top hand)
7) top arm takes over after transition point creating vertical racquet head speed (spin)
8) top hand speeds up while bottom hand slows down (bottom arm will bend to allow for greater ISR of top arm)
9) top arm should be straight at contact allowing for maximum vertical racquet head speed
10) Trajectory of shot determined by depth of the "flip"

Thoughts?

Sean

I find this type of list very helpful.

Sometimes I get so mired to detail, I can't see the forest for the trees. This helps clarify things.

Any chance you can post one for forehands? (Or perhaps you already have?)

thx/ jim

[seano]

Jim -

Let me see what I can do. PowerPoint like this allows me to remember it better.

Sean

[jimlosaltos]

Jim -

Let me see what I can do. PowerPoint like this allows me to remember it better.

Sean

Kewl. Don't want to put you to a lot of trouble but I, and I suspect others, would find it useful / interesting.

[seano]

Jim - Here you go

ATP forehand comparison - My summary of BGs research -

4 Pillars of Type 3 FH -
1) Fractionation - assigning racquet head velocities to unique body sources
2) Independent Arm Motion
3) Linear Hand Path
4) Neuromuscular Enhancement of Vertical Racquet Head Speed

Type III – Ideal type of forehand
- Positional backswing that's elbow driven
- Racquet is above and to the outside of the hand. Hand to the outside of arm. Arm to outside of torso
- Hand/racquet is extended well beyond shoulder in the backswing
- Significant independent arm motion w/clear sequencing of hip/torso/independent arm – 3 link system
- Sequencing mitigates load on shoulder
- Pulling force of the hand forward has large inertial effect (lag) and creates the “flip”
- "Flip" directly effects and externally rotates the shoulder
- External to internal coupling mechanism is driven by the racquet in the "flip".
- Contact well in front of body
- Elbow is maintained straight (165 – 180 degrees)
- Non-twisting shoulder creates the speed component, while the shoulder external to internal coupling creates the spin component of the heavy ball
- Spin comes from shoulder
- Follow throughs are situational

ATP Classical - most common forehand style
- Functional backswing that’s shoulder driven with raised elbow
- Racquet is above and to the outside of the hand. Hand to the outside of arm. Arm to outside of torso
- Hand/racquet closer to body in backswing – CREATING NEED FOR HAND SPEED BEING BROUGHT INTO THE FORWARD SWING
- Less independent arm motion than type 3, moderately linear hand path
- Rotation sequences are less distinct, i.e. less clear sequencing of hip/torso/arm
- Shoulder external rotation mechanism altered. “Flip” & rotating racquet adding to inertia of forearm which then externally rotates the shoulder. Classical FH = shoulder + forearm, Type 3 = Just shoulder
- Elbow is bent ( 120 – 165 degrees) at contact
- Contact is closer to body than type 3 - Less inertia arm/racquet to pull through torso rotation
- Hip/torso rotate more in tandem, the more bent the elbow is - Link system may be 2 (elbow more bent) or 3 (elbow less bent)
- Hand has more vertical path through internal shoulder rotation - i.e. windshield wiper motion



ATP Modern FH –

• Backswing is Positional, mostly elbow driven
• Backswing is far more outside than the other types
• Elbow tends to be very bent when forced into external shoulder rotation
• Rotation sequencing more a unit rotation; body and arm together
• Shoulder external rotation is PRIMARILY MUSCULARLY DRIVEN, which is the most significant difference with the other ATP types
• “Flip” goes up, not down. Keeps racquet head above hand
• Elbow bent at contact = 120 – 165 degrees
• Minimal independent arm motion accelerating through torso rotation
• Internal shoulder rotation is partially used to produce forward ball speed

WTA Type II - forehand is the most common on the WTA tour.

• Inside racquet position entering the forward swing, fundamental difference with all ATP types
• Shoulder external rotation occurs during the backswing, rather than during the forward swing like the ATP types.
• Circular swing path with a bent elbow and minimal independent arm motion
• Unit swing, body and arm rotate in tandem (no sequencing)
• Most functional backswing of all FH types
• Elbow bend at contact = 90 – 120 degrees
• Best suited for hitting hard and flat (little variability)
• Does not have great solutions for certain incoming shots like higher balls
• If upper arm is vertical, when you internally rotate, the shoulder will produce motions in two directions (up & forward). Violating the fractionation principle

Thoughts?

Sean

[jimlosaltos]

Jim - Here you go

[FONT=Calibri]ATP forehand comparison - My summary of BGs research -

4 Pillars of Type 3 FH -
1) Fractionation - assigning racquet head velocities to unique body sources
2) Independent Arm Motion
3) Linear Hand Path
4) Neuromuscular Enhancement of Vertical Racquet Head Speed

Wow! THANK YOU !

It will take a while for me to digest this, but I greatly appreciate it.