Tsitsipas forehand

[glacierguy]

This link was originally provided by don_budge in the thread about Leylah Fernandez's Forehand. I occasionally add it to my routine, and find it very helpful in the context of this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a53iThFQhSQ

[glacierguy]

Tsitsipas just lost to Murray in quarters of Stuttgart.

[jimlosaltos]

Tsitsipas just lost to Murray in quarters of Stuttgart.

I'm in the middle of watching that as I type, only to the tiebreak. Stef, as Murray said afterwards, was serving lights out. But seemingly couldn't get a return in the court.

Perhaps he hasn't readjusted from clay, while Murray's been doing nothing but for a month.

Not half bad for a guy playing on a resurfaced hip joint !

[glacierguy]

I'm in the middle of watching that as I type, only to the tiebreak. Stef, as Murray said afterwards, was serving lights out. But seemingly couldn't get a return in the court.

Perhaps he hasn't readjusted from clay, while Murray's been doing nothing but for a month.

Not half bad for a guy playing on a resurfaced hip joint !

I'm jealous! Not on Prime Video in UK. I would love to have seen the revenge for ToiletBreakGate.

[stroke]

Murray plays the beyond annoying Kyrgios today. I am pulling for Murray, but he is clearly not the favorite here.

[stroke]

https://images.app.goo.gl/xgUyFsV3dMmDuBGK9

"Nick, you look so cool out there brah".

[stroke]

Nick has now had 3 code violations, the 3rd one resulting in a game penalty. Oh, completely unrelated, he is down set.

[jimlosaltos]

Nick has now had 3 code violations, the 3rd one resulting in a game penalty. Oh, completely unrelated, he is down set.

So, Andy Murray, resurfaced hip and all, beat Tsitsipas and Kyrgios on grass in 4 straight sets. Not broken once yesterday and the ATP site won't cough up a table, but I'm guess no breaks today.

I think skipping clay to prep on clay is working well for the metal-hipped one. Awesome.

[dimbleby69]

Rob: I compressed two lumbar discs moving to ATP groundstrokes from old school groundstrokes by forcing speed into a new rotational and not building a foundation.When you are properly loaded, you won’t feel any vibration in any of the body joints if you sequence properly which includes not rushing any segment before the previous segment transfer. For many that feeling is never experienced properly because of poor prior shot recovery footwork and poor visual anticipation. Make sure recovery and anticipation are in good shape before learning new footwork for a new stroke.

1.Video your recovery steps and anticipation.
2.Video the loading process footwork (footwork from ready position to ball contact).Pay particular attention to the FiIRST step from the ready position. #1 and #2 are the building blocks for #3.
3. The perfect swing is never rushed and therefore has no joint vibration. It’s hard to learn and sequence a new stroke under time pressure. Getting these things right first might make it a little easier for you insert and master the new swing technique. Instructor slow toss gives us time to learn proper, unrushed sequencing, but as soon as we add recovery.and footwork loading under time pressure, things break down quickly.

As ever, doctor, you are right on the money. Video shows up poor footwork and I have been feeling just how bad is my visual anticipation since starting to film 4 weeks ago. Week 4, which I haven't been able to edit, does show small improvement in the split step (I do actually manage one, sometimes) but generally it's a problem. Particularly when trying to move back to hit semi-open. Once upon a time I had a good hold of where my contact point was when hitting open, and the footwork seemed to come without having to think about it. Not any more!

The therapists I've consulted on my back (my regular Physio and a Chiropractor) independently agree that I don't have a disc problem, it's just that my back is now “hyper-vigilant” after past episodes. But you should be able to take a look at the sequencing yourself and see if it is problematic for the joints because...

I should be posting some video from Week 3 shortly (so you can also observe for yourself the footwork deficiencies). The most interesting part of the discussion in this thread is the detail about straightening the arm. Somewhere in the last months the feel I had for it on court has evaporated and something odd is happening at the start of the forward swing. The turn seems to go ok, but then when Tsitsipas's racket arm goes down and his off arm points forward (why not mention him, he's got his name on the thread!) my forearm remains up and I don't flip – a sort of mini loop happens that looks much more like Chris Evert than anyone else I can think of. If I could hit the ball as cleanly as her then I wouldn't complain (and I would have too high an opinion of my forehand to be looking for guidance on this forum), but of course I can't.

Week 4 felt generally like Week 3 continued, except that at the end of it I was concentrating on trying to get my off arm out of the way earlier, and it did push the contact point further forward.

Thanks again for another insightful post, doctor. Reassuring to hear you have been through the learning process and come out the other side.

regards
Rob

[dimbleby69]

This link was originally provided by don_budge in the thread about Leylah Fernandez's Forehand. I occasionally add it to my routine, and find it very helpful in the context of this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a53iThFQhSQ

Thanks for the link, gg. Some of this is finding its way into the exercises I'm getting from the Physio, but great to have another resource to put in the mix.

regards
Rob

ps and thanks to don_budge.

[doctorhl]

As ever, doctor, you are right on the money. Video shows up poor footwork and I have been feeling just how bad is my visual anticipation since starting to film 4 weeks ago. Week 4, which I haven't been able to edit, does show small improvement in the split step (I do actually manage one, sometimes) but generally it's a problem. Particularly when trying to move back to hit semi-open. Once upon a time I had a good hold of where my contact point was when hitting open, and the footwork seemed to come without having to think about it. Not any more!

The therapists I've consulted on my back (my regular Physio and a Chiropractor) independently agree that I don't have a disc problem, it's just that my back is now “hyper-vigilant” after past episodes. But you should be able to take a look at the sequencing yourself and see if it is problematic for the joints because...

I should be posting some video from Week 3 shortly (so you can also observe for yourself the footwork deficiencies). The most interesting part of the discussion in this thread is the detail about straightening the arm. Somewhere in the last months the feel I had for it on court has evaporated and something odd is happening at the start of the forward swing. The turn seems to go ok, but then when Tsitsipas's racket arm goes down and his off arm points forward (why not mention him, he's got his name on the thread!) my forearm remains up and I don't flip – a sort of mini loop happens that looks much more like Chris Evert than anyone else I can think of. If I could hit the ball as cleanly as her then I wouldn't complain (and I would have too high an opinion of my forehand to be looking for guidance on this forum), but of course I can't.

Week 4 felt generally like Week 3 continued, except that at the end of it I was concentrating on trying to get my off arm out of the way earlier, and it did push the contact point further forward.

Thanks again for another insightful post, doctor. Reassuring to hear you have been through the learning process and come out the other side.

regards
Rob

Rob: Try to let the images control things, not you....and don’t get too hung up on outcome.

I found it hard (when unlearning old motor memory), to let the hip/shoulder turn generate centrifugal force to lower the racket arm and initiative the racket flip prior to the forward swing. The image of a loop or phrases like “ pat the dog” made me consciously do the movement with my arm rather than just letting gravity and centrifical force produce the movement. Unraveling 40 years of old school motor memory began with hitting the first 200 feeds in the net or over the fence. This meant I was truly willing to not guide the new school swing for accuracy or power, but rather trying to reproduce the imagery without worrying about outcome at all. Even with reducing variables by using machine soft toss, it took a year to put in new school checkpoints without focusing too much on outcome. Hopefully you don’t have too much old memory to unravel!!

[don_budge]

Thanks for the link, gg. Some of this is finding its way into the exercises I'm getting from the Physio, but great to have another resource to put in the mix.

regards
Rob

ps and thanks to don_budge.

[glacierguy]

He lives!! Glad to see your post.

[dimbleby69]

Well, it's only taken about 2 months, or whatever, but here is some video of me hitting forehands. It's too long at nearly 3 minutes(!), but getting that down from the original 9 felt like a triumph and it's going to take this old dog a while to get up to speed with video editing. It's bad enough trying to learn new tennis tricks. Many thanks to JY and JC for their help in getting this posted.


The video is from Week 3 (now in Week 7) of hitting with my club coach since the latest back problems. Things have moved on a bit in the meantime, but the footage illustrates well what I'm calling the 'Chris Evert' loop problem (I appear to be externally rotating my arm by 'conscious' effort) and that seems relevant given the productive discussion earlier in this thread about how to straighten the arm in the Quest for the Perfect Swing (copyright Brian Gordon - see post #31). What the good doctor_hl has said about trying to relax the arm as the moment to 'flip' approaches also rings in my ears. Often I seem to get my arm straightening but then it folds on the way forward. As JY has said fairly often, the goal of having a straight arm for its own sake is pointless. It may be that when I straighten the arm it's hindering a proper, relaxed flip. Or maybe it's a separate issue.


This sequence of forehands is a bit deceptive, flattering the subject. Although these aren't exactly ball feeds of the type I think doctor_hl was referring to a couple of posts back, the coach is giving me balls I can hit off the front foot in the main (it spares the viewer the struggles with getting into position - and trying to get my weight going forward - when hitting semi-open). It may be that I will have to go back a stage to the ball feeds. At the moment it still feels like I am trying to rediscover something rather than learn something new, but I might have to give up on that notion and start again from scratch.

If you've taken the time to take a look, thanks

regards
Rob

[doctorhl]

Arm path seems pretty good. But, it seems like on some strokes you don’t get a bent, rear leg drive and your weight shifts too early to the front foot. You are thinking of shifting weight linearly( especially in neutral stance strokes) and not throwing your right hip up and around. The arm, therefore is guiding the ball a little too much and you leak power. Of course, focusing too much on that can muddy the water real quick. Try hitting more balls with a semi open stance and focus on the rear leg maintaining the weight a little longer and feel the rear leg naturally extend to push the right hip up and around. The body rotates as the arm unfurls and extends out to contact. But, this movement must not outrun the arm swing. Look at some pro rear leg/hip loading and unloading in Yandell’s archives.