Tsitsipas forehand

[stroke]

John alluded to Stef's forehand and asked the question is this the new model. Certainly would be very interesting to get BG's take on it. It looks like a model type 3 straight arm technique to me, independent arm action and all, but he does not close the racquet face/pat the dog as Nadal and Fed. HIs rpm's are right up there with all the top tier rpm guys(per shotspot) such as Nadal, Fabio, Matteo, Ruud, etc.

[jimlosaltos]

John alluded to Stef's forehand and asked the question is this the new model. Certainly would be very interesting to get BG's take on it. It looks like a model type 3 straight arm technique to me, independent arm action and all, but he does not close the racquet face/pat the dog as Nadal and Fed. HIs rpm's are right up there with all the top tier rpm guys(per shotspot) such as Nadal, Fabio, Matteo, Ruud, etc.

I recall an TV analyst saying, roughly from memory: "Tsitsipas and Shapovalov are among the first pros to come up learning tennis at a young ago with the new approach, and larger tennis balls. As a result, they both have very wristy shots." No idea if that is true and haven't heard it elsewhere, but that image stuck with me.

P.S. Here's TPNs recent Tour Portrait of Stef, in case anyone wants to see those images - although he hit a lot more backhands than usual in this match at Indian Wells in October. Probably why he lost to Bash

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nos_tsitsipas/

[stotty]

It looks like a model type 3 straight arm technique to me, independent arm action and all, but he does not close the racquet face/pat the dog as Nadal and Fed. HIs rpm's are right up there with all the top tier rpm guys(per shotspot) such as Nadal, Fabio, Matteo, Ruud, etc.

I just wonder if he drops the racket head (to get a steeper upward swing) a little more than Roger to achieve the same amount of spin? No idea, just thinking out loud.

[BrianGordon]

Greetings all - I was asked to comment on this so here it goes. The Type III model is not impacted, nor determined, by the twist orientation (on edge, flat or intermediate) of the racquet entering the forward swing. This orientation is mostly determined by grip preference.

I will say that more on edge versions require more wrist adjustment to guide the slot mechanics. The role and activity of the wrist approaching contact have been discussed to exhaustion (the analyst probably missed that day in class). The flat configuration is more of a teaching tool than a model attribute. So... this is Type III. Whether it is the new model is apparently quite debatable.

Finally, (stotty) it is possible that the on edge entry configuration alters the slot dynamics enough to require a deeper flip... I tend to think the opposite but I can't say for sure - interesting point - maybe I'll try to figure it out someday.

[jimlosaltos]

I just wonder if he drops the racket head (to get a steeper upward swing) a little more than Roger to achieve the same amount of spin? No idea, just thinking out loud.

Dug these up Stotty. Tsitsi's spin is well up there. Just a couple of examples, peak and averages. Combined forehand & backhand, Stef is one of the heaviest hitters on tour. Not quite to Berretini's total MPHs, or Bash's average MPHs, but the combo of speed and spin is right up there at the top.

A high average forehand of 3,263 RPMs vs Medy on clay and ...

filedata/fetch?id=96809&d=1641147709&type=thumb

And here from our Roland Garros/ Infosys research, a forehand at a staggering combo of 125 MPH and 3,584 RPMs in beating Zverev:

filedata/fetch?id=96810&d=1641147362&type=thumb

#

[stroke]

Greetings all - I was asked to comment on this so here it goes. The Type III model is not impacted, nor determined, by the twist orientation (on edge, flat or intermediate) of the racquet entering the forward swing. This orientation is mostly determined by grip preference.

I will say that more on edge versions require more wrist adjustment to guide the slot mechanics. The role and activity of the wrist approaching contact have been discussed to exhaustion (the analyst probably missed that day in class). The flat configuration is more of a teaching tool than a model attribute. So... this is Type III. Whether it is the new model is apparently quite debatable.

Finally, (stotty) it is possible that the on edge entry configuration alters the slot dynamics enough to require a deeper flip... I tend to think the opposite but I can't say for sure - interesting point - maybe I'll try to figure it out someday.

Brian, thanks so much for joining this discussion. I am particularly interested in why the "on edge" version requires more wrist adjustments to guide the slot mechanics?

[stotty]

Dug these up Stotty. Tsitsi's spin is well up there. Just a couple of examples, peak and averages. Combined forehand & backhand, Stef is one of the heaviest hitters on tour. Not quite to Berretini's total MPHs, or Bash's average MPHs, but the combo of speed and spin is right up there at the top.

A high average forehand of 3,263 RPMs vs Medy on clay and ...

And here from our Roland Garros/ Infosys research, a forehand at a staggering combo of 125 MPH and 3,584 RPMs in beating Zverev:

Interesting. I saw Tsitsipas at Wimbledon around 4 years ago. He hit relatively less spin than other players back then. I saw Roger play on the same day and liked the way he taps into more spin now and again as and when he needs it. Other players don't seem to do that in quite the same way. I only saw Tsitsipas play live that one time, but he was a big hitter, not that much topspin. I guess on clay and hard courts he may use more. I am not sure how spin rates vary and compare with players across the surfaces.

[jimlosaltos]

Interesting. I saw Tsitsipas at Wimbledon around 4 years ago. He hit relatively less spin than other players back then. I saw Roger play on the same day and liked the way he taps into more spin now and again as and when he needs it. Other players don't seem to do that in quite the same way. I only saw Tsitsipas play live that one time, but he was a big hitter, not that much topspin. I guess on clay and hard courts he may use more. I am not sure how spin rates vary and compare with players across the surfaces.

Your wish is my command, searching my email archives ... I dust this off.

This is from way back in 2018, select hard and clay courts, but has a lot of players in one place. ATP data compiled by nom-du-web vestige-du-jour.

Caption: Forehand topspin on the bottom axis, Backhand on the left hand axis, both averages. "Big Four" in Red, top 10 in green.

So, further to your right means the forehand has more spin, while further up means the backhand has more spin. Your upper-right quadrants means high in both. My usual disclaimer: These are averages and averages can deceive.

While I'm at it, I might as well pull this quote out from what I wrote back then:

Brad Gilbert ins 2018 described both the variety and the disguise that makes it so effective:

“He can go inside-out, inside-in, he hits a really good approach. There’s a lot to build on with his forehand. And I think as he gets stronger, that shot’s only going to get bigger,” said former World No. 4 Brad Gilbert. “His ability when he hits inside-in [is also important] because most guys go inside-out. When he hits it you’re not expecting it and that’s only going to make his inside-out better. So I think the forehand is off the charts.”

“One thing that impressed me was how well on the run he could scramble. He'd hit little squash shots back, flick shots below the net and his ability on big points to play the inside-in or take a forehand and come in is impressive,” Gilbert said. “He’s got a lot of confidence on that shot, which is a great sign for someone his age. Maybe he has the best forehand in the game in a few years.”

filedata/fetch?id=96816&d=1646605558&type=thumb

[BrianGordon]

Brian, thanks so much for joining this discussion. I am particularly interested in why the "on edge" version requires more wrist adjustments to guide the slot mechanics?

Stroke - a primary goal of the slot is to use the rotating racquet to externally rotate the shoulder in the type III swing. The rotating racquet is most effective in producing this result if the angle between the racquet and straight arm is 90 degrees. For traditional grips (cont to eastern) associated with on edge entry, the wrist will need to be extended to obtain this angle (as close to 90 as possible). The more modern grips (semi to western) require less extension because the difference in hand position on the racquet (more under) produces a greater angle between the racquet and the straight arm by definition.

[stotty]

Your wish is my command, searching my email archives ... I dust this off.

This is from way back in 2018, select hard and clay courts, but has a lot of players in one place. ATP data compiled by nom-du-web vestige-du-jour.

Caption: Forehand topspin on the bottom axis, Backhand on the left hand axis, both averages. "Big Four" in Red, top 10 in green.

So, further to your right means the forehand has more spin, while further up means the backhand has more spin. Your upper-right quadrants means high in both. My usual disclaimer: These are averages and averages can deceive.

While I'm at it, I might as well pull this quote out from what I wrote back then:

Brad Gilbert ins 2018 described both the variety and the disguise that makes it so effective:

“He can go inside-out, inside-in, he hits a really good approach. There’s a lot to build on with his forehand. And I think as he gets stronger, that shot’s only going to get bigger,” said former World No. 4 Brad Gilbert. “His ability when he hits inside-in [is also important] because most guys go inside-out. When he hits it you’re not expecting it and that’s only going to make his inside-out better. So I think the forehand is off the charts.”

“One thing that impressed me was how well on the run he could scramble. He'd hit little squash shots back, flick shots below the net and his ability on big points to play the inside-in or take a forehand and come in is impressive,” Gilbert said. “He’s got a lot of confidence on that shot, which is a great sign for someone his age. Maybe he has the best forehand in the game in a few years.”

filedata/fetch?id=96816&d=1646605558&type=thumb

Interesting. So players hit with more topspin on clay than on hard but not by the margin one might have thought...between 5 and 7% if I understand correctly. And the one-handers are generally hitting more topspin than two-handers.

[jimlosaltos]

Interesting. So players hit with more topspin on clay than on hard but not by the margin one might have thought...between 5 and 7% if I understand correctly. And the one-handers are generally hitting more topspin than two-handers.

Yup. One note, tho. For years the one-handed backhands have had both higher average MPHs and RPMs than the two-handers. I remember NYTs stats showing Dimitrov and Wawrinka topping Wimbledon for backhands. However, the Roland Garros/ InfoSys stats I dug up for TPN, showed the peak numbers for some two-handers were now even higher than those of the one-handers. Zverev showed ground strokes at over 130 MPH on BOTH sides. I don't recall the spin but he was also up there.

Now, this is all from Hawk-Eye only and I'd like to have confirmation from some other source. John has mentioned a USTA source, I believe it is, that said there is some question about HE accuracy at the higher end.

If accurate, then the question is "Is that from technique, equipment, or simple personal achievement?"

[stroke]

Yup. One note, tho. For years the one-handed backhands have had both higher average MPHs and RPMs than the two-handers. I remember NYTs stats showing Dimitrov and Wawrinka topping Wimbledon for backhands. However, the Roland Garros/ InfoSys stats I dug up for TPN, showed the peak numbers for some two-handers were now even higher than those of the one-handers. Zverev showed ground strokes at over 130 MPH on BOTH sides. I don't recall the spin but he was also up there.

Now, this is all from Hawk-Eye only and I'd like to have confirmation from some other source. John has mentioned a USTA source, I believe it is, that said there is some question about HE accuracy at the higher end.

If accurate, then the question is "Is that from technique, equipment, or simple personal achievement?"

I thought Gasquet was the highest spin rate on backhands?

[jimlosaltos]

I thought Gasquet was the highest spin rate on backhands?

Right! He's on that graphic from 2018 I shared with the highest backhand spin by a good margin. All the one-handers are shaded yellow.

I was simply citing stats from one Wimbledon showing Stan & Grigor that year to agree with the comment on one-handers.

[dimbleby69]

Stroke - a primary goal of the slot is to use the rotating racquet to externally rotate the shoulder in the type III swing. The rotating racquet is most effective in producing this result if the angle between the racquet and straight arm is 90 degrees. For traditional grips (cont to eastern) associated with on edge entry, the wrist will need to be extended to obtain this angle (as close to 90 as possible). The more modern grips (semi to western) require less extension because the difference in hand position on the racquet (more under) produces a greater angle between the racquet and the straight arm by definition.

Does this imply that Tsitsipas consciously extends his wrist as he begins his forward swing?

Looking at the High Speed Archive, and having lingered over some of the slow-mo replays on Amazon coverage, a lot of the time as he pushes off his back leg and starts to straighten out his arm Tsitsipas seems to have his knuckles pointing at the sky, ie. his wrist is in a neutral position. There was some court-level footage of his match against Alcaraz in Miami with him hitting inside out, trying to find his opponent's backhand, and from memory the shift from neutral to extended wrist was lightning fast.

Does this shift happen as a consequence of him straightening his arm out as he swings forward or does he have to extend his wrist simultaneously? After a 2 week visit to a Spanish tennis academy a couple of years ago I have involuntarily migrated to a straight arm and I'm trying to embrace it. I have an eastern grip. With my left arm parallel to the court and weight loaded in semi-open stance my arm is bent and straightens out as I push off my back foot. Should I perhaps 'pre-cock' my wrist into an extended position before pushing off my foot? Or would this just invite other problems?

While trying to answer these questions I've revisited this article by Brian, which addresses the role of the wrist and how it relates to the dynamic slot and the transition point. In case the link doesn't work, here is how to navigate to it: Biomechanics>Brian Gordon>Developing an ATP forehand Part 2 (page 2). This seems as good a point as any, by the way to say thank you to Brian and JY for their articles and the site. With this information available my teenage self would have had a lot less trial-and-error to go through! But the internet hadn't even been invented then...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members....html?new=true


There is emphasis on the desirability of delaying the transition point as long as possible and “it is done by maintaining the laid back orientation of the wrist as long as possible”. I seemed to have a eureka moment last Summer when I could feel this happening. But...

“However, this is often easier said than done. The laid back wrist is created as a dynamic consequence of the racquet flip in dynamic slot. Because of this the wrist has the tendency to release forward from elastic components of the stretch-shorten cycle.

Players must consciously prevent this release from happening.”


To sum up then: this implies that the wrist is not extended consciously – it happens as a consequence of a good 'flip' – but it needs to be consciously maintained in an extended position.

One point for me to note is that there is, in my mind at least, a confusion about, or a blurring between, what I might consider Tsitsipas's back swing and his forward swing. Fed, in JY's articles on the forehand as well as in Brian's, is often seen to straighten out his arm as his knee bend reaches its maximum. In BG's terms, this means that the backswing is perfectly positional. If I try this then my arm folds into a bend as it swings forward and the chances are I will hit a chicken-wing forehand with no proper extension. Tsitsipas sometimes seems to have his arm in this purely positional take-back (arm straight, knee bent) and at others seems to (me, at least) straighten both knee and elbow joints at the same time, which is how my brain/body wants to do it.

regards

Rob

[johnyandell]

Rob,
Now that is quite a thoughtful piece of analysis. I've asked Brian to weigh in. It would be helpful though if you could post the urls from our high speed archive. Forget about Amazon... I mean ones that show your various points in the post. Also if you have some high speed video of your forehand?