Mastering the Slice Backhand: Part 4

[johnyandell]

Let's discuss John Craig's latest article in his series, "Mastering the Slice Backhand: Part 4"

[jthb1021]

Thanks Craig! I have really enjoyed this series you have done on the slice. I’ve liked the way you’ve said certain things that will help me be a better teacher. I’m glad you didn’t show some of the “funky grip” slices we see at the club level!

[johncraig]

Thank you so much! I am pleased to know some of these concepts will help you to help your students play a better slice! Kindly, John Craig/ Performance Plus Tennis

[tennis chiro]

John, I just got done watching your 4 videos on the slice backhand and I really enjoyed them. Your stroke seems to be right in line with the presentation that Trey Waltke made on the backhand slice. I call this stroke a Rosewallian slice and It is my preferred stroke, or at least the backhand slice I prefer to teach. I actually preferred to hit the drive or topspin one-hander, but I used the slice a lot. However, I find most pro players today prefer to hit what I call the Federarian slice with a more pronounced downward action. I’ve heard many players say the modern topspin ball is too heavy to use the Rosewallian, flatter swing. One of the reasons I liked the flatter swing was you could disguise your shot as a one-hander and start slice, topspin or flat drive in the same plane. To a certain degree, you could even hide a topspin backhand lob. The Federation slice seems to be a better vehicle for imparting heavy spin and also for executing a disguised drop shot, but I think you give up what I call the “knife”, the penetrating fast low slice that is excellent as an attacking shot and approach shot.

Here are two examples of high performance players I’ve had on my court recently who are hitting this Federarian style slice. I think Marcos is in trouble as soon as he flattens the face of the racket at the top of the backswing. It makes it too difficult to manage what should be a very simple movement of the racket face with great consistency. I’d like to see him take the racket back across his upper tricep as you demonstrate.

Marcos Bh Slice - https://youtu.be/q_C6nz7x0D0


Angela is a little different story. She is trying to emulate Barty’s slice. While her initial position at the top of the backswing is similar to Barty, I think there is way too much rotation of the racket face to achieve good consistency, certainly in comparison to Barty’s action. Barty starts high, but she lowers the racket a little before she really starts the forward swing; however, it is still essentially a Federarian slice with a lot of downward action and sidespin; but the racket face maintains a fairly constant orientation through the stroke - very little manipulation of the face.

Angela Bh Slice - https://youtu.be/_GXYBsQJvUU




Barty Bh Slice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXtFFBFCGLQ

Federer Bh Slice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmnTPzInVP8

Rosewall Bh Slice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rws3xyYbthI




John, ’d love to hear your comments.

Thanks,
don brosseau

[johncraig]

Hi Don, Great to hear from you! I really respect your knowledge and so glad you enjoyed the Slice Series. I will start out by saying I am not a big fan of Federer's technique on the slice, although he is very effective. It seems his slice is more "down and across" than it used to be. I actually think his extreme downward swing makes playing the high contacts more difficult, and thus the reason you almost never see him slice a high contact. The more traditional/ level slice can be played effectively at various contact heights. And yes, the more level swing will produce the "knife" effect on the ball, keeping it low and skidding.

Barty's slice at the beginning of the video is fascinating! The steep descent of her racquet to contact is remarkable, but probably not ideal for most rec players to emulate. I think Dimitrov has an excellent slice that is a great model to follow on the ATP. Even Djokovic has a simple, clean slice that is a good example, although it is rarely mentioned.

As a final thought, I think players should master the basic slice technique and fundamentals, and then allow their style and the variations develop from there. Clearly there is more than one way to have an effective slice, but the fundmental pathway to getting there should not be overlooked.

Thanks for your support to the series. All the best, John

[stotty]

Great conversation!

I agree with the author that the sliced backhand is an incredibly versatile shot with many potential nuances to it. When I was an up and coming player there was little in the way of coaching around so the better players tended to coach one another and would frequently hand knowledge down. Two things most commonly passed around with slice were to cut inside low backhands and carve around the outside of high balls - the latter is seldom talked about these days but I have seen Roger do it. The idea behind learning these skills were such slices would present more difficulty for the opponent.

I watched Dimitrov and he certainly hits a great 'straight' sliced backhand.

I like John's own backhand with his lower take back as way of teaching club players. It really complicates things for club players when they opt for a high backswing with steep downward swing.

I always think Rafa is a little different as he 'steps back rather than steps through' when hitting a sliced backhand from a central position in the court. He uses a kind of backward momentum. He does this quite a lot and it's easily findable on YouTube to see what I mean.

With regard to the Rosewall clip, is he not hitting a drive here...as there is virtually no downward movement of the racket after contact?

[stotty]

Tim Henman had a beautiful sliced backhand. Here he is walking us through the shot...with a lovely demo....and advocating NOT to have a high take back and steep downward swing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Imql9P5CW0

[doctorhl]

Agree on the difficulty of Fed’s slice swing path, but that high take back and downward path sure does look deceptively similar his takeback on his “cut” dropshot with sidespin. Even though his dropshot travels high, the backswing deception and backspin/ sidespin bounce make that kind of dropshot hard to hit with a conventional slice. The sidespin is deadly on clay.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKRSz2KliE

[tennis chiro]

Stotty, thanks for the clip of Henman demonstating the slice. It's exactly the clip I was looking for to demonstrate the "Rosewallian slice" by one of today's player. Unfortunately, I don't see many, if any, players using this technique today. As for Rosewall hitting a flat drive, I would argue that his basic drive backhand was a slice with just a little bit of underspin, but it penetrated through the court and was very effective as a passing shot as well.

I was still hoping for a little feedback on whether Marcus could get away with that initial flattening of the racket at the top of his backswing just as he starts the forward swing. I think he has to change that to develop a truly reliable slice backhand and I'm wondering if anyone has seen anyone be successful with a similar movement in their backhand slice stroke. I see the stroke as being very simple with very little manipulation of the racket face as the stroke is executed; that's part of the reason it is very repeatable and accurate and also very useful under a lot of pressure.

And John, I was hoping for a little more discussion on what I consider a fallacy that the topspin on today's shots makes it too difficult to use the slice that Rosewall used or Henman is demonstrating. Indeed, it might be tougher on the deep heavy balls where you need to play a little more defensively, but I think Rosewall would have just taken those balls on the rise agressively, but then I am a certifiably old codger longing for "the good old days" when men were men and they went to the net. In any case, there are still planty of opportunityes on shorter balls to attack the net and those balls would certainly be good opportunities to use the slice drive, but the players simply don't have that skill.

thanks for the feedbck

don brosseau

[stotty]

Stotty, thanks for the clip of Henman demonstating the slice. It's exactly the clip I was looking for to demonstrate the "Rosewallian slice" by one of today's player. Unfortunately, I don't see many, if any, players using this technique today. As for Rosewall hitting a flat drive, I would argue that his basic drive backhand was a slice with just a little bit of underspin, but it penetrated through the court and was very effective as a passing shot as well.

I was still hoping for a little feedback on whether Marcus could get away with that initial flattening of the racket at the top of his backswing just as he starts the forward swing. I think he has to change that to develop a truly reliable slice backhand and I'm wondering if anyone has seen anyone be successful with a similar movement in their backhand slice stroke. I see the stroke as being very simple with very little manipulation of the racket face as the stroke is executed; that's part of the reason it is very repeatable and accurate and also very useful under a lot of pressure.

don brosseau

I would say he can get away with it but of course I would be nice to him playing the shot under duress. Rosewall has an open racket face that you could balance a cup of tea on, but granted it's a different type of shot altogether. I don't like to see a wide open racket face because for me there is a risk it might remain a little too open at contact. But once these things establish with players it can be awfully hard to modify things back again. You would need commitment from Marcus to achieve what you would like, for sure.

But Marcus's slice looks sound enough to me and I wouldn't play around with it too much if it works and he is comfortable with it. The bottom line I guess is, is the shot effective despite perhaps being aesthetically displeasing to the coach.

I selected Henman's slice as it the best I can think of for hitting directly through the ball. I personally think players need a lower take back to achieve this. I like John Craig's take back for the same reason.

Last year I worked with a good player with a high take back and got him to lower it. I will see if I can find some before and after clips. I essential got him to lower the backswing for lower balls, which make's sense when you think about it. This way he could get right behind the ball and hit through the line of it. What Barty is doing with the first backhand she hits in the clip you posted is ridiculous to me...starting way above her head for a ball down by her shoelaces...doesn't make sense.

But, yes, I am on your page. Simple is best, as simple as you can make a shot the less likely it is to go wrong. Most Brits down the years have been great role models for the sliced backhand and we have been the last nation to lose the shot in its classic context.

Murray is practicing his sliced backhand at 2:12 in this clip and they look pretty good to me. Not as good as Henman's but for a modern day player it's pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nks540pd2jY

[johnyandell]

Don,
It seems the velocity and spin in the modern pro game makes the old style slice drive very difficult or impossible. Here is a little investigation we did:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_3/

[doctorhl]

Don,
It seems the velocity and spin in the modern pro game makes the old style slice drive very difficult or impossible. Here is a little investigation we did:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...n_pro_slice_3/

Your investigative article is great and right on target! It also most likely explains why I could never get reverse and/or side action bounce on my Federer style dropshot....never facing pro levels of speed and spin.

[tennis chiro]

John,

the little research project you did on the viability of the old style flatter slice drive vs the modern heavier downward strike seems to answer the question I’ve been posing for a long time. Is there room for that classic shot in today’s high speed, high spin, high bouncing pro game. At first glance, the answer seems to be no, but I would take the question a little further. Besides the fact that the recreational player and even the more advanced non-professional competitive player can definitely benefit from using the classic stroke, I see more utility in the shot for the pro player. Sure, against the deep, high bouncing, heavy ball, you have to use what I call the Federerian motion to deal with the ball that is probably getting almost above your shoulders. When I played, I had two slices as part of my one-handed backhand armamentarium. I was no Rosewall, but I could show my opponent some variety on the baseline mixing in the slice drive with my topspin backhand off the same preparatory backswing and when the ball got too high or heavy, I would use what I considered a “chop” that is similar to today’s predominant version of the slice. We all used that shot to defend and tried to “feather” the ball deep in the court while gaining time to get back into position. But when the ball was a little short on the backhand side, most players of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s would approach the net with a Rosewallian slice drive that penetrated the court, going deep and bouncing low. I have always thought the game changed significantly in the mid-80’s as the youth learned to play with bigger racket heads and started to look at short balls at the baseline as something they could hit with almost all their might with a topspin forehand. I think that shot would still be useful for players today because when they approach on that short ball today, it often sits up too much and presents an opportunity for the opponent to pass. The problem is, of course, you have to have the ability to hit that shot which is a little sharper than the slice approach that the pros hit today and you can’t have that ability if you never practice the shot. That short ball is not so high bouncing, fast or heavy that it can’t be handled and if anyone had that kind of shot in their arsenal, I think it would be a distinct advantage. Sure, against Rafa’s topspin forehand, you probably need to hit the heavier, modern slice (but I like to imagine how Rosewall would have dealt with it! - Ravings of an old man!). Federer has to have terrific racket head speed to generate the ball speed to go with the spin he generates when he hits that slice as an attacking shot. The classic slice applies more of the momentum of the racket to the ball and creates a fast ball with a lot less racket head speed and therefore a little better opportunity for consistency and accuracy. I got to practice with Laver, Emerson, Ashe, Ralston, Graebner and especially an older Dick Savitt in 1971 when I was living in the Vanderbilt tennis club and I remember how devastating that slice drive was when it came deep into the corner of the court. It was almost unplayable. Of course, I was a relative chump, but the shot certainly made an impression. I think there is still room for it in the game, but no one has It in their arsenal. I think that’s a shame.

Don Brosseau

PS. The player I'd really like to see develop that shot would be Cressy. I think it would be a terrific addition to his game and another way for him to get to the net.

[stotty]

I tend to think that's true. But I'm not convinced that on many balls in the pro game, players couldn't also drive more directly through if they wished to or adapted their swings.

That was a great article. And, yes, it's a shame the classic slice became extinct, but the need for it to completely disappear is hard to understand. At Wimbledon many of the two-handed players hit dead flat - Murray being an excellent example - and the ball comes in lower, and since backhands are hit crosscourt a very large percentage of the time you wonder why the lower backswing had to become less prevalent when it would be bonus in that situation. But then I guess 70% of the tour is on hard courts.

There's a strong argument for a player learning both styles if it were possible to do so, but I guess that wouldn't be easy even for pro players.

[johnyandell]

Yep classic slice extinct basically at the pro level although I agree it could be used in many situations. In my view the extreme slice though is wrong headed for the overwhelming number of players...