Russia -US In Davis Cup, What Happened Over 9 years

[jimlosaltos]

Russia just won the Davis Cup behind Medvedev and Rublev, with Karatsev in doubles.

Here's what happend in the 2012 Junior Davis Cup. via Oleg S.

And here's ATP & DC titles since Wimbledon.

Olympics: Zverev
US Open: Medvedev
ATP Finals: Zverev
Davis Cup: Russia
Most titles: Zverev (6)
Year-end No. 1: Djokovic
Year-end Top 10: All European
Junior DC Round Robin 2012

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[stotty]

Tough to understand what's gone wrong over the pond there. You have gone from having some of the finest players ever to virtually no one of any note. I think all countries have their cycles but you would think a country the size and population of the USA would be able to perpetuate players constantly. Is participation over there down compared to previous years perhaps? Or have other sports proved more appealing?

Over here tennis seems to have finally entered a more positive phase. However, soccer is still a massive game over here and continues to steal some of the best athletes.

[jimlosaltos]

Tough to understand what's gone wrong over the pond there. You have gone from having some of the finest players ever to virtually no one of any note. I think all countries have their cycles but you would think a country the size and population of the USA would be able to perpetuate players constantly. Is participation over there down compared to previous years perhaps? Or have other sports proved more appealing?

Over here tennis seems to have finally entered a more positive phase. However, soccer is still a massive game over here and continues to steal some of the best athletes.

I have zero direct knowledge. But people involved, such as player Reilly O'Pelka and Jim Courier say there is more competition from "other sports" in the US than in Europe where there is "one soccer", i.e. football. I'm skeptical of that. Courier defended the USTA's programs by saying essentially "Blame the players." Can't recall his exact words, but that's what he meant.

Others, such as Wayne Bryan have criticized the dogmatic approach of the USTA.

As we discussed in an earlier thread, the best female player in America since Serena -- Naomi Osaka -- was rejected by the training system for being something such as "less prepared" than others, per Chris Evert . To which, John replied here on point "Isn't that their job?". I can understand when late bloomers are passed over, but I watched Naomi win her first main tour WTA match at 16 yo -- so, no, not a late bloomer. And, yes, massive potential obvious extremely early.

Another criticism of the US / USTA system is that it is so heavily monopolized by East Coast bureaucrats. Why do athletes from California, the largest state in the union with 40 million people, lots of sunshine, tennis courts, players and top college tennis programs, have to go to Florida to get in the centralized training system ?

Along that same vein, Lleyton Hewitt once said pro tennis thrives where kids can see top players at tournaments. There used to be 22 pro tournaments in the Western US states alone, I've heard, now the ATP has one (1) in all the states West of the Mississippi, not Texas {states with a population of ~120 Million people} -- that's Indian Wells. WTA has 2 in IW plus San Jose.

Yet there are two within 50 miles of each other in Miami held only weeks apart.

There are more ATP events in Umag than in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Denver, Seattle, and Portland -- combined.

There are more US Open Series men's events in Canada than in the Western US with 120 Million people, despite lots of tennis fans, and major sponsors.

I can't explain that.

#

[stotty]

I have zero direct knowledge. But people involved, such as player Reilly O'Pelka and Jim Courier say there is more competition from "other sports" in the US than in Europe where there is "one soccer", i.e. football. I'm skeptical of that. Courier defended the USTA's programs by saying essentially "Blame the players." Can't recall his exact words, but that's what he meant.

Others, such as Wayne Bryan have criticized the dogmatic approach of the USTA.

As we discussed in an earlier thread, the best female player in America since Serena -- Naomi Osaka -- was rejected by the training system for being something such as "less prepared" than others, per Chris Evert . To which, John replied here on point "Isn't that their job?". I can understand when late bloomers are passed over, but I watched Naomi win her first main tour WTA match at 16 yo -- so, no, not a late bloomer. And, yes, massive potential obvious extremely early.

Another criticism of the US / USTA system is that it is so heavily monopolized by East Coast bureaucrats. Why do athletes from California, the largest state in the union with 40 million people, lots of sunshine, tennis courts, players and top college tennis programs, have to go to Florida to get in the centralized training system ?

Along that same vein, Lleyton Hewitt once said pro tennis thrives where kids can see top players at tournaments. There used to be 22 pro tournaments in the Western US states alone, I've heard, now the ATP has one (1) in all the states West of the Mississippi, not Texas {states with a population of ~120 Million people} -- that's Indian Wells. WTA has 2 in IW plus San Jose.

Yet there are two within 50 miles of each other in Miami held only weeks apart.

There are more ATP events in Umag than in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Denver, Seattle, and Portland -- combined.

There are more US Open Series men's events in Canada than in the Western US with 120 Million people, despite lots of tennis fans, and major sponsors.

I can't explain that.

#

One imagines the participation numbers might tell a bit of the story. I wonder what participation is today compared with the Agassi/ Sampras generation. I always think if you get enough kids playing someone will come through even despite and system rather than because of it.

That said, the LTA have found ways to inflate participation numbers as they get government funding based on numbers participating. Players recruited onto the computer system are seldom removed so even if a kid gave up after two years they will still be showing as a participant.

[jimlosaltos]

Yup. Searching I see 17.84 million people play tennis in US today (2020) per Tennis Industry Association (there was a bit of a pandemic boost, since tennis was for a time one of the "allowed" sports)

Number in 1990 I see is 21 million. So much higher then on a smaller population, 330 million now vs 250 million, approx.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vpLCQZrdvG8C&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=total+tennis+players+in+US+1997&source=bl&ots=RLAQetta25&sig=ACfU3U1vXgBohtiysQDHjsryCsQkXPxvjA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjE48_Kqtf0AhViIDQIHWg6AUAQ6AF6BAgZEAM#v=onepage&q=total%20tennis%20players%20in%20US%201997&f=false

[stotty]

Yup. Searching I see 17.84 million people play tennis in US today (2020) per Tennis Industry Association (there was a bit of a pandemic boost, since tennis was for a time one of the "allowed" sports)

Number in 1990 I see is 21 million. So much higher then on a smaller population, 330 million now vs 250 million, approx.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vp...201997&f=false

Well that might be part of the story then. Another might be the system and the coaching. Some small countries have done well in the past through good coaching programmes along with healthy participation relative to population size and density.

I would tend to go for participation above everything but also good coaching programmes and competition structure should feature heavily.

One thing they get wrong over here is competition. Kids start competing at 6 or 7 years old but half burnout in the first year, then it gets halved again the year after that. It's not rocket science why. Only one kid wins the trophy per event and all the others are therefore made to feel less valued. Chivvying children and consoling then only works for long and then they, understandably, quit and do something else.

Team tennis competitions would work way better when it comes to player retention. Every child plays matches for a team and the team wins or loses as a whole. This way more children feel more valued. Works a treat. The problem is traditional tennis completion is so entrenched there is reluctance to change it. Traditional still works fine...but not for the tiddlers or those below the age of 10.

This is an area I have worked a lot in.

[jimlosaltos]

Well that might be part of the story then. Another might be the system and the coaching. Some small countries have done well in the past through good coaching programmes along with healthy participation relative to population size and density.

I would tend to go for participation above everything but also good coaching programmes and competition structure should feature heavily.

One thing they get wrong over here is competition. Kids start competing at 6 or 7 years old but half burnout in the first year, then it gets halved again the year after that. It's not rocket science why. Only one kid wins the trophy per event and all the others are therefore made to feel less valued. Chivvying children and consoling then only works for long and then they, understandably, quit and do something else.

Team tennis competitions would work way better when it comes to player retention. Every child plays matches for a team and the team wins or loses as a whole. This way more children feel more valued. Works a treat. The problem is traditional tennis completion is so entrenched there is reluctance to change it. Traditional still works fine...but not for the tiddlers or those below the age of 10.

This is an area I have worked a lot in.

Great idea. Use team competition to keep more kids involved !

[doctorhl]

My old doubles partner is the USTA President this year. I told him that the USTA should at least look at the idea of taking over the US Pickleball Association( while the organization is still at a grass roots level!) and putting it under their umbrella in light of the enormous projection of participation numbers. I’m not sure the tennis establishment would even consider such a heretical discussion, but all possibilities should at least be considered when analyzing new paradigms for growth.

[jimlosaltos]

My old doubles partner is the USTA President this year. I told him that the USTA should at least look at the idea of taking over the US Pickleball Association( while the organization is still at a grass roots level!) and putting it under their umbrella in light of the enormous projection of participation numbers. I’m not sure the tennis establishment would even consider such a heretical discussion, but all possibilities should at least be considered when analyzing new paradigms for growth.

Great idea