Interactive Forum December 2021: Leylah Fernandez Forehand

[don_budge]

Introduction by Dr. Brian Gordon

In earlier article I defined some of the components of what I call a Type III ATP forehand. I have also been outspoken that females could hit the stroke. Naturally, as Leylah burst onto the pro scene many noticed the straight arm and opined, for that reason, she could be an example of the Type III.

But she is not:

1. Her back swing is Type II with an inside roll. It is simply an inside loop – her (not so unique these days) slant is that she completes the loop with an elbow extension.

2. While she exits the backswing with a straight arm, the racquet is positioned inside the hand (and often below) – this precludes a true “dynamic flip” as I’ve defined it.

3. The dynamic flip is used to pre-tense the muscles that create twisting rotation of the arm segments in the forward swing. Hers is a “lag” which does not accomplish this goal. Instead, the racquet rotation simply extends the wrist. This is the configuration she will need for racquet orientation at contact, and to produce a bit of a slap.

4. Typical of Type II strokes with an inside loop, her torso rotation profile is synchronous (hips and shoulders spin about the vertical axis in tandem). She departs from the Type II model by extensive independent rotation at the shoulder. The dynamic flip of the Type III swing requires sequencing of the torso segments plus independent shoulder rotation to produce the forward force orientation required.

5. Sequencing implies converting linear forces from the ground to propagating rotations of the segments up the chain. Spinning uses rotational torques from the ground to produce a spin rotation of the entire body. She is primarily a spinner and this explains her squatting propensity on tough balls.

There are infinite ways to combine body rotations to hit a ball. To her credit, Leylah has constructed a forehand solution that has allowed her to hit it at a high level and that is great. But… I would certainly not teach these elements to my developing players. To me her interpretation is ill-conceived – I guess time will tell if it is among the panes in her glass ceiling.

Ahh the words of Dr. Gordon - I've missed them )

My take aways -
1) The flip occurs from an outside position of the hand/racquet and occurs because of the pulling forward of the hand which externally rotates the shoulder.
2) Sequencing of the hip to torso to shoulder must occur (first 1/3 = firing of hips, second 1/3 = torso rotation, third 1/3 = independent arm motion) as opposed to the trunk/torso/shoulder moving as a unit (trunk dominated swing).
3) Interesting about the independent arm motion from Leyla at the end of stroke and how that differs from most and shows up as a slap.
4) Still alittle fuzzy of meaning of Leyla being a spinner?

Sean

I guess I’m more optimistic about her forehand. I was watching this video on YouTube of her practicing and she’s hitting the ball very, very hard with just enough topspin to keep it in. I think the straight arm is giving her great contact with the ball and an earlier contact point, which is probably really hard to read. I also think the straight arm helps with those half volley forehands where her knee is on the ground. She still hits those really hard.

I like her extension too as John mentioned. She really drives her shoulder through the ball. In the slow motion clip she has a sleeveless shirt so can see how her left shoulder is working the ball.

https://youtu.be/5BALxdQSSto

Hi guys: There is no question she hits it well, the question is at what cost. The objective of my approach is to produce the independent arm motion at the shoulder joint with minimum joint torque (muscular load). Given the inertia of a straight arm I think this is important.

Sequencing is used to mitigate the adduction load and the dynamic flip is used to mitigate the internal rotation load. In both regards her technique appears to replace mechanical efficacy with excessive muscular (at the shoulder joint) activation - "muscling" the shot. Of course we can't know for sure without the torque profiles and I'd love to see those.

I like the straight arm obviously as perhaps the biggest advocate of that configuration. On the other hand I question the way the accelerations are derived when considering short term localized fatigue and longer term participation. She is a bit of a pioneer at this level and I'm pulling for her - certainly we will all learn a lot.

Can you please help me understand in pratical terms what could Leilah change in terms of the hand position/raquet to have a type 3 fh? My specific question incides on noticing that at 10s of the video, she is in a raquet outside position of the hand/racquet.. so if she had this configuration at the end of the backswing, in terms of outside position of the hand/racquet she would have the type 3 fh configuration? So maybe she is trying to emulate the type 3 fh that the guys do by bringing the raquet out at 10s, but loses it as she moves the racquet in afterwards..so a simple correction there, of bringing the racquet further back to the outside at the end of her backswing could have the desired type 3 fh effect. Another issue would then be the sequencing of the torso segments plus independent shoulder rotation to produce the forward force orientation required. Right? Thank you

Hello Brian,
I greatly enjoyed your analysis of Fernandez’s forehand. You described her as a spinner which I found most interesting. Some analysts have described Justine Henin as a player who spins. Would you say that Henin is a more efficient spinner than Fernandez? Do you believe that Henin might be the best female example of your teaching methodology.

Norman Ashbrooke

Jeremy93 and Rosesunny seem to be asking about the position of the racquet in the backswing as an indicator of type 3. The key instant is when the hand initiates the forward path to contact (end of backswing) - the condition is that the tip of the racquet must be outside (to the right in back view) and above the hand. The palm down can be helpful but not determinant. The image referenced at t=10s is at the "unit" turn - this is a similar position for all swing types. I would refer to the 4 pillars (4th pillar) article or (older and more confusing) dynamic slot article for a description of this rationale.

Norman - yes, I believe Justine may well be the best female example. I define spinning as twisting the feet (and/or throwing the back leg around during the forward swing) on the court to produce a rotational torque from the ground - this rotates the entire body as a unit. Not sure how the analysts define it but in reviewing several videos of Justine's forehand she appears to be a sequencer - using linear force from the ground to initiate segmental sequencing. In fact, she is very good at it and I see no evidence of spinning???

Thank you Gordon
So Leilah could have an easy type 3 hand position by just making a simple correction of taking the hand to the outside from the unit turn rather than inwards? In your opinion Is it because coaches don't know or is it ingrained in the player and she feels confortable that way? Do you believe it would bring added value to change or to keep what works for her?
Thank you

Hello Brian,
Thank you very much for your reply! You described Justine as a sequencer and not a spinner. That explanation is very helpful. I assume Roger Federer would be the ideal sequencer in the men’s game. I have read that Justine’s coach would have Justine watch videos of the top men players. She is certainly the finest example of proper stroke production. Thank you again for your invaluable instruction.

Sincerely,

Norman Ashbrooke

In theory the changes would be simple. In practice nearly impossible. My experience is that once an inside backswing is established as the motor program it is very painful to change. I suspect this is the pattern she grew up with (like most girls) and the straight arm emerged later. At this point she should "dance with the one that brung her" and see where it goes - seems to be working so far. The Type 3 components, assuming that is what someone wants, have to be built at a very early age or it is a long ugly process.

Do you know what a good conversation looks like? It looks like this. Some beautiful questions answered by competent and precise information. From the conversation there are two points of reference to be considered. One is the issue of "SEQUENCING" as opposed to spinning...this is one excellent point and it is solvable with some work. The second is the path of her hand and thus the racquet face from her set up position and the transfer into the down swing...forward swing.

Tennis is...golf on the run. Brian is a gift to the tennis world as he brings to the table the sort of things that are routinely discussed in the golf world. Since golf starts from a static position it has evolved naturally into a technical and teaching evolution. Tennis seems to be lagging behind. But Brian is on to it.

Looking at the two issues from a golfing perspective it boils down to this. First the sequencing issue. If you can get the player to commit to this exercise program for a month...a lot of this can be rectified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a53iThFQhSQ

I submit myself as an example. Even though my involvement in tennis has dwindled there are moments when a bit of the old white light wants to come back into my purview. I had a very difficult time learning the sequencing from the right hand side of the golf swing. This is because as a younger person I learned to swing a baseball bat from the left side. But by committing to this exercise program for a couple of months now, since the middle of October, I have vastly improved my rotation and sequencing from the right hand side of the golf swing by a factor of one hundred percent. This is a no brainer. It just takes some work and consistency. By the way...I did this at 67 years old so it won't be any problem for a young athlete. In just a couple of months I am more of a "natural" from the right side than I am from the left side now.

The second issue is a bit more technical and even a simpler explanation will rectify this issue. This is a very, very interesting adaption you are asking the player to make. Because it is so subtle, it can only be understood by reducing the problem to its simplest form. The issue is one of what Ben Hogan refers to in his teachings in the "Five Fundamentals of Golf" as one of plane. The plane of the backswing and the plane of the forwards swing. Brian identifies the problem in that this tennis player does not get herself in position correctly to begin the forwards swing. So the first adaption is going to show her where to set up for the forwards swing. This is not so complicated but the problem is her body will resist the correct forwards motion because the current one is so set in her hard drive.

So the thing to do is focus on the path of the index finger. Show her the proper line to trace with her index finger and then put a racquet in her hand and ask her to duplicate the line she does without the racquet. This is what humans do with their index finger...they point. Once she has a clear understanding what the path is of the finger and with the sequencing exercise program it is only a matter of time before she is able to adapt her new motion to the swing. The sequencing of the body rotation is going to "pull" the hand through the path of the swing quite naturally.

I actually was able to correct one of the fundamental major flaws in not only my golf swing but in just about every golfer by doing just this. It was actually just a bit more complicated because it is a two handed sport and I also had to understand the motion of my left hand...and to do this I focused on the path of my thumb. The action of the left hand is beautifully diagramed in Hogan's book and it was so simple to incorporate this action into my swing after I clearly understood what the path of my left hand look like. Once I fully understood the roles or paths of the right index finger and the left thumb, it was just a matter of getting comfortable with both hands working together and not fighting each other.

In order to get comfortable with the swing, I practice swinging right handed only, with the proper body sequencing and I practice swinging left handed only doing the same. After getting comfortable with the different components it is a most natural motion that swings the golf club as a result. The more comfortable I become with it, it feels as if the weight of the clubhead is swinging my body and vice versa.

Brian is absolutely correct when he says, "in theory the changes would be simple". They are. A couple of months ago I would have agreed with the second part too..."in practice nearly impossible". But with some hard work and with a clear vision of what it is she is trying to accomplish...I think it is doable.

[BrianGordon]

Thanks don_budge for this great post and kind words. I always enjoy your golf analogies and "golf on the run" is perfect. I particularly like your use of specific fingers to train the orientation and path of the hand(s) - expresses the swing goals in terms of everyday life experience - nice.

I also agree it is doable. In fact I spend everyday trying to prove that. I'm just not sure that given her recent success she would be motivated to work hard to make the changes assuming a clear vision of those changes even existed in her camp.

[stroke]

I like DB's idea of using the index finger as a learning tool in trying to learn the type 3 fh. If I am understanding this correctly, Leila's index finger(if she was to point it out her current hand position, before her move to contact)would be somewhat palm side up and maybe her index finger would be pointing somewhat back and up. Fed, the gold standard, his index finger would be palm down and pointing to the right fence, pretty much on a straight line, before his move to contact as he moves through his transition point. Leila seems maybe to start her move to contact directly from the transition point instead of doing the type 3 flip into the transition point.

[don_budge]

In theory the changes would be simple. In practice nearly impossible. My experience is that once an inside backswing is established as the motor program it is very painful to change. I suspect this is the pattern she grew up with (like most girls) and the straight arm emerged later. At this point she should "dance with the one that brung her" and see where it goes - seems to be working so far. The Type 3 components, assuming that is what someone wants, have to be built at a very early age or it is a long ugly process.

Yes Brian...great job! Your analysis in terms of swing path (backswing and forwards initiation) are excellent and particularly resonate with me as a full time golfer now. Imagine that. Also...you got some great comments from seano, ten1050, rosesunny, jeffreycounts and jeremy93. The real kicker is your differentiating between a spinner and segmentation. The exercises in the video are game changers in terms of rotational force. These are the forces that add up to put the oomph in the fingerprint of the index finger.

I would like to add a word about John Yandell and his website. Brian is such a great asset to have and is another reason why tennis player.net is such a great bang for the buck. Month in...month out. Consistent quality. Consistent value. The acid test of a viable commodity.

Just loved this thread. I thought many days before posting. I thought long and hard. This was actually a very valuable lesson as rosesunny realises most of all perhaps.

[don_budge]

I like DB's idea of using the index finger as a learning tool in trying to learn the type 3 fh. If I am understanding this correctly, Leila's index finger(if she was to point it out her current hand position, before her move to contact)would be somewhat palm side up and maybe her index finger would be pointing somewhat back and up. Fed, the gold standard, his index finger would be palm down and pointing to the right fence, pretty much on a straight line, before his move to contact as he moves through his transition point. Leila seems maybe to start her move to contact directly from the transition point instead of doing the type 3 flip into the transition point.

Excellent stroke. Think index finger fingerprint. Orient the palm and the rest of the body around the fingerprint. Now trace the path of the swing...a good idea to do this on the back and forwards swing.

Most importantly...do the exercise program in the video! Then that index finger fingerprint takes on a whole new understanding. All that motion...pulling and lifting and turning. It all adds up...exponentially. Create club head speed! Oops...racquet head speed!

[stroke]

Excellent stroke. Think index finger fingerprint. Orient the palm and the rest of the body around the fingerprint. Now trace the path of the swing...a good idea to do this on the back and forwards swing.

Most importantly...do the exercise program in the video! Then that index finger fingerprint takes on a whole new understanding. All that motion...pulling and lifting and turning. It all adds up...exponentially. Create club head speed! Oops...racquet head speed!

Of course, there is still the independent arm action that Nadal and Fed are masters of that is so important. Leila has that very prominent rotation or spinning into the shot.

[glacierguy]

Looking at the two issues from a golfing perspective it boils down to this. First the sequencing issue. If you can get the player to commit to this exercise program for a month...a lot of this can be rectified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a53iThFQhSQ

Happy New Year don_budge.

I was sold on this guy as soon as I saw the first exercise - passing the medicine ball over your head from one hand to the other whilst standing on one leg. I have already found out for myself that performing an exercise whilst slightly unstable (ie balancing) is very beneficial and works all sorts of muscles that you might otherwise neglect (for example, single leg arabesque). I have dusted off my medicine ball (it's actually a "slam ball") and will incorporate some of these exercises. Thanks.

[doctorhl]

Great exercises Don Budge. Oh, but to be able to sequence correctly in my backhand!

[don_budge]

Happy New Year don_budge.

I was sold on this guy as soon as I saw the first exercise - passing the medicine ball over your head from one hand to the other whilst standing on one leg. I have already found out for myself that performing an exercise whilst slightly unstable (ie balancing) is very beneficial and works all sorts of muscles that you might otherwise neglect (for example, single leg arabesque). I have dusted off my medicine ball (it's actually a "slam ball") and will incorporate some of these exercises. Thanks.

Absolute best to you and yours glacierguy. This video has its place in developmental work. Brian's observation about the lack of "segmentation" in the young lady's move on the forehand and classifying her as a "spinner" struck a bell with me. I have written my golf analogy, which may or may not be lost on any given forum reader, but this truly helped me to get to a point where I had been spinning my wheels to get to. This stuff reminds me of the subject that hockeyscout used to write about when he was posting. But the idea of the body sequencing movements in order to move the right index finger with speed is worthwhile investigation. Those movements have to be trained and optimised.

Best of luck to you in 2022. It promises to be a year like no other. If anyone thought 2021 was a strange year where things just don't add up...hang on tight. The key operative word will be "vaccine" is my prediction.

[don_budge]

Great exercises Don Budge. Oh, but to be able to sequence correctly in my backhand!

You can do it! This will definitely help an old dog to learn a new trick. Afterall...I am the "Living Proof". Good luck and best to you in 2022!