Upward Swing on the Serve: Most Complex Motion in Sports?

[tenniscoach1]

TennisCoach -

I am a stroke mechanics specialist focusing mostly on early development players.

While the things you mention are obviously important I have neither the time or expertise to address them.

So yes, I farm physical preparation to others. In my main program the kids work with Mike Barwis and his staff - smart guy and seems pretty good at this.

Mike is the head of S&C for the NY Mets and head of sport science for the Detroit Redwings. He has four centers in the USA with the Deerfield, FL center possessing a full scale MMA program and facility sponsored by a major medical instrument company..

Out of my wheel house so that is what I rely on.

Okay - that is interesting ...

[BrianGordon]

Arturo -

The purpose of my articles is to help understand the strokes (a different slant perhaps) and provide some perspective for the variability in stroke technique observed at all levels and across genders. I intentionally don't presume to know how to best teach any individual player - that is the job of a coach.

While an advocate of players participating in a variety of sports, I don't use other motions when working specifically on tennis strokes. I don't believe there is harm in this but I've yet to find a motion that is specific enough to the stroke I'm teaching to be of tangible benefit.

[arturohernandez]

TennisCoach -

I am a stroke mechanics specialist focusing mostly on early development players.

While the things you mention are obviously important I have neither the time or expertise to address them.

So yes, I farm physical preparation to others. In my main program the kids work with Mike Barwis and his staff - smart guy and seems pretty good at this.

Mike is the head of S&C for the NY Mets and head of sport science for the Detroit Redwings. He has four centers in the USA with the Deerfield, FL center possessing a full scale MMA program and facility sponsored by a major medical instrument company..

Out of my wheel house so that is what I rely on.

One more question for you Brian. What do you think about the usual teaching pro tricks? Things like throw/serve drills, throwing footballs, throwing the racket as high as possible in a grassy field. There is a group of people out there (including me) that think breaking down a stroke into its parts is great for explanation but hard for us to capture. it's not that we cannot practice little parts of a stroke. It's just that if we create other exercises outside of tennis serving, that it then might be easier to put them together. We can also incorporate the feel of these exercises.

To me the easiest way to address Khachanov's issues would be to have him throw an American Football and then serve. Serena says her dad made her do it a lot. It's hard to throw a spiral with a stiff arm which is what I get when I see him try to muscle the serve and thus get less rotation.

Just wondering if your videos are for us to understand what is going on.

And, just to finish here, even though I tend to not like to reduce a stroke to its parts. I do it all the time myself.

Thanks for all your explanations!

So my question is:

Do you use other sport movements to help a stroke outside of tennis?

[BrianGordon]

TennisCoach -

I am a stroke mechanics specialist focusing mostly on early development players.

While the things you mention are obviously important I have neither the time or expertise to address them.

So yes, I farm physical preparation to others. In my main program the kids work with Mike Barwis and his staff - smart guy and seems pretty good at this.

Mike is the head of S&C for the NY Mets and head of sport science for the Detroit Redwings. He has four centers in the USA with the Deerfield, FL center possessing a full scale MMA program and facility sponsored by a major medical instrument company..

Out of my wheel house so that is what I rely on.

[johnyandell]

We are not a scientific journal and have no intention of becoming one. The purpose of the articles are not as precursors to sales.

[johnyandell]

TC if you read the article Brian distinguished between pure bio mechanical understanding and teaching practice. The answers to most of your questions are in his other articles in the biomechanics section.

[tenniscoach1]

The U.S., for whatever reason, does not do a good job of making tennis science research( or other sport science for that matter) from the rest of the world readily available for the public to access.

If you don't have your references page at the end they will pretty much blackball you from coaching in Russia or Eastern Europe ... detail oriented is an understatement. USA is more relaxed in many ways. Anyways, the best in the world ask the toughest questions and push coaches to extremes. Coaching these days is not showing up at the courts or gym or rink - its about the 12 hours of prep work you did before the practice and your programming. Good information is power, and I have to say in tennis in the last few years the training programs have improved so much in such a short time span. The stuff I used to see five years ago was comical - and now you have tennis player that are on programs that are clearly designed by MMA/NFL/NBA/Olympic coaches that know what they are doing. The dumb tennis fitness trainers of the past sure are getting weeded the hell out fast out of this sport - and if you aren't adapting fast now you are on the outside looking in - its amazing the career longevity now. I look at what Novak does, and what this Italian 19 year old kid ... and, I am a bit shocked.

[tenniscoach1]

Thanks for the answer Brian - appreciate it.

In my line of MMA/contact sports where a guy can get punched/killed there is a strict process we follow ... so, I tend to ask a lot of questions - please don't take offense.

A couple of specific things that I am curious on though that are generally not covered here ...

- While what you say about the stroke is interesting and bears further examination - I'd like to know how you go about athletically setting up your player to serve? The things you speak about are very complex - and take years and years of specialized training off the court to properly initiate/activate. Do you have separate specialist trainers you work with that physically set up the athlete to achieve the joint angles and muscle sequencing you require? I'd love to better understand how you're philosophies on stretch speed and what you guys are doing to enhance elastic energy in your athletes and the overall development of the spinal column. I take it your are farming off that work to third parties - discussing with them the areas of mobility the athlete is lacking, etc? I would imagine you have a ton of pre-curser work for athletes to do?

- Can you talk to us a little about your periodization, thoughts on weightlifting, bio-mechanical data you track, how many reps you do, athlete arm care programs, how you operate/monitor your load management program and what third party software you are using to tie it all together?

[BrianGordon]

Thanks guys but honestly this doesn’t seem that complicated.

This is a Tennis Website, not the Lancet. I, like I assume most other contributors, write articles based on unique perspectives out of respect for the work John has done for a very long time.

My unique perspective is that of a full time coach with some science background. My main interest has always been applied sport science. I write as a synthesis of my experiences in hope some might find it interesting, if not useful on some.level.

No more, no less. I assume readers will accept or reject my thinking based on the merits of the discussion. I guess if it adds to the enjoyment to question my background or motives then get in line. I’ve not the time nor interest to discuss this further.

[tenniscoach1]

So I’d love to see this work, science and references ... what are the links?

[doctorhl]

As a kinesiology professor of 40 years with years of reading and interpreting sports science research( not producing, however), seano is right on target about discipline specificity and glacierguy is right on target about BG’s academic publishing acumen and especially his ability(and willingness) to communicate the science to the application. BG is up there with the likes of Bruce Elliott and those who came before. In addition, John Yandell is right up there with the likes of Jack Groppel and Paul Roetert as U.S. applied tennis science communicators. The U.S., for whatever reason, does not do a good job of making tennis science research( or other sport science for that matter) from the rest of the world readily available for the public to access.

[tenniscoach1]

Dr. Mark Kovacs got his PhD in Exercise Physiology. I follow his work BUT
Dr. Brian Gordon got his PhD in Biomechanics
There's a big difference between the 2 disciplines and the specialization of research, especially when talking about stroke mechanics.

Why do you follow Mark Kovacs work? What does this guy know that Mark doesn’t? Tell me your thoughts on Mark’s work?

[tenniscoach1]

Citations, references etc ... this is a requirement in this business. I’d love to see the details of how these conclusions were reached which is why I asked for the white papers and references. I do not know this guy from a hole in the ground, don't understand yet how he reached his conclusions, have no understanding if he is the real deal or pouching good players and in this business these are the questions you have to ask very seriously as this is a sport that breeds con artists. Don’t take it personal guys. Can you send me the links/citations you are speaking of please Glacier Guy?

[seano]

Dr. Mark Kovacs got his PhD in Exercise Physiology. I follow his work BUT
Dr. Brian Gordon got his PhD in Biomechanics
There's a big difference between the 2 disciplines and the specialization of research, especially when talking about stroke mechanics.

[glacierguy]

Hi tenniscoach1 - think you may be barking up the wrong tree. Brian Gordon is the real deal. He has many published scientific papers in the Journal of Biomechanics, the Journal of Sport Sciences and the American College of Sport Medicine, if that's what concerns you. I have learned much more from Dr Gordon's articles and video explanations on TennisPlayer than from reading the necessarily rather dry, technically dense and jargon-laden scientific papers.

I for one, believe Dr Gordon to be the foremost biomechanicist and communicator working in tennis today, and we're lucky to have him contribute on TennisPlayer.