Upward Swing on the Serve: Most Complex Motion in Sports?

[tenniscoach1]

So I’d love to see this work, science and references ... what are the links?

[BrianGordon]

Thanks guys but honestly this doesn’t seem that complicated.

This is a Tennis Website, not the Lancet. I, like I assume most other contributors, write articles based on unique perspectives out of respect for the work John has done for a very long time.

My unique perspective is that of a full time coach with some science background. My main interest has always been applied sport science. I write as a synthesis of my experiences in hope some might find it interesting, if not useful on some.level.

No more, no less. I assume readers will accept or reject my thinking based on the merits of the discussion. I guess if it adds to the enjoyment to question my background or motives then get in line. I’ve not the time nor interest to discuss this further.

[tenniscoach1]

Thanks for the answer Brian - appreciate it.

In my line of MMA/contact sports where a guy can get punched/killed there is a strict process we follow ... so, I tend to ask a lot of questions - please don't take offense.

A couple of specific things that I am curious on though that are generally not covered here ...

- While what you say about the stroke is interesting and bears further examination - I'd like to know how you go about athletically setting up your player to serve? The things you speak about are very complex - and take years and years of specialized training off the court to properly initiate/activate. Do you have separate specialist trainers you work with that physically set up the athlete to achieve the joint angles and muscle sequencing you require? I'd love to better understand how you're philosophies on stretch speed and what you guys are doing to enhance elastic energy in your athletes and the overall development of the spinal column. I take it your are farming off that work to third parties - discussing with them the areas of mobility the athlete is lacking, etc? I would imagine you have a ton of pre-curser work for athletes to do?

- Can you talk to us a little about your periodization, thoughts on weightlifting, bio-mechanical data you track, how many reps you do, athlete arm care programs, how you operate/monitor your load management program and what third party software you are using to tie it all together?

[tenniscoach1]

The U.S., for whatever reason, does not do a good job of making tennis science research( or other sport science for that matter) from the rest of the world readily available for the public to access.

If you don't have your references page at the end they will pretty much blackball you from coaching in Russia or Eastern Europe ... detail oriented is an understatement. USA is more relaxed in many ways. Anyways, the best in the world ask the toughest questions and push coaches to extremes. Coaching these days is not showing up at the courts or gym or rink - its about the 12 hours of prep work you did before the practice and your programming. Good information is power, and I have to say in tennis in the last few years the training programs have improved so much in such a short time span. The stuff I used to see five years ago was comical - and now you have tennis player that are on programs that are clearly designed by MMA/NFL/NBA/Olympic coaches that know what they are doing. The dumb tennis fitness trainers of the past sure are getting weeded the hell out fast out of this sport - and if you aren't adapting fast now you are on the outside looking in - its amazing the career longevity now. I look at what Novak does, and what this Italian 19 year old kid ... and, I am a bit shocked.

[johnyandell]

TC if you read the article Brian distinguished between pure bio mechanical understanding and teaching practice. The answers to most of your questions are in his other articles in the biomechanics section.

[johnyandell]

We are not a scientific journal and have no intention of becoming one. The purpose of the articles are not as precursors to sales.

[BrianGordon]

TennisCoach -

I am a stroke mechanics specialist focusing mostly on early development players.

While the things you mention are obviously important I have neither the time or expertise to address them.

So yes, I farm physical preparation to others. In my main program the kids work with Mike Barwis and his staff - smart guy and seems pretty good at this.

Mike is the head of S&C for the NY Mets and head of sport science for the Detroit Redwings. He has four centers in the USA with the Deerfield, FL center possessing a full scale MMA program and facility sponsored by a major medical instrument company..

Out of my wheel house so that is what I rely on.

[arturohernandez]

TennisCoach -

I am a stroke mechanics specialist focusing mostly on early development players.

While the things you mention are obviously important I have neither the time or expertise to address them.

So yes, I farm physical preparation to others. In my main program the kids work with Mike Barwis and his staff - smart guy and seems pretty good at this.

Mike is the head of S&C for the NY Mets and head of sport science for the Detroit Redwings. He has four centers in the USA with the Deerfield, FL center possessing a full scale MMA program and facility sponsored by a major medical instrument company..

Out of my wheel house so that is what I rely on.

One more question for you Brian. What do you think about the usual teaching pro tricks? Things like throw/serve drills, throwing footballs, throwing the racket as high as possible in a grassy field. There is a group of people out there (including me) that think breaking down a stroke into its parts is great for explanation but hard for us to capture. it's not that we cannot practice little parts of a stroke. It's just that if we create other exercises outside of tennis serving, that it then might be easier to put them together. We can also incorporate the feel of these exercises.

To me the easiest way to address Khachanov's issues would be to have him throw an American Football and then serve. Serena says her dad made her do it a lot. It's hard to throw a spiral with a stiff arm which is what I get when I see him try to muscle the serve and thus get less rotation.

Just wondering if your videos are for us to understand what is going on.

And, just to finish here, even though I tend to not like to reduce a stroke to its parts. I do it all the time myself.

Thanks for all your explanations!

So my question is:

Do you use other sport movements to help a stroke outside of tennis?

[BrianGordon]

Arturo -

The purpose of my articles is to help understand the strokes (a different slant perhaps) and provide some perspective for the variability in stroke technique observed at all levels and across genders. I intentionally don't presume to know how to best teach any individual player - that is the job of a coach.

While an advocate of players participating in a variety of sports, I don't use other motions when working specifically on tennis strokes. I don't believe there is harm in this but I've yet to find a motion that is specific enough to the stroke I'm teaching to be of tangible benefit.

[tenniscoach1]

TennisCoach -

I am a stroke mechanics specialist focusing mostly on early development players.

While the things you mention are obviously important I have neither the time or expertise to address them.

So yes, I farm physical preparation to others. In my main program the kids work with Mike Barwis and his staff - smart guy and seems pretty good at this.

Mike is the head of S&C for the NY Mets and head of sport science for the Detroit Redwings. He has four centers in the USA with the Deerfield, FL center possessing a full scale MMA program and facility sponsored by a major medical instrument company..

Out of my wheel house so that is what I rely on.

Okay - that is interesting ...

[tenniscoach1]

TC if you read the article Brian distinguished between pure bio mechanical understanding and teaching practice. The answers to most of your questions are in his other articles in the biomechanics section.

Brian provided me the missing components I wanted to know in a message later ...

[doctorhl]

One more question for you Brian. What do you think about the usual teaching pro tricks? Things like throw/serve drills, throwing footballs, throwing the racket as high as possible in a grassy field. There is a group of people out there (including me) that think breaking down a stroke into its parts is great for explanation but hard for us to capture. it's not that we cannot practice little parts of a stroke. It's just that if we create other exercises outside of tennis serving, that it then might be easier to put them together. We can also incorporate the feel of these exercises.

To me the easiest way to address Khachanov's issues would be to have him throw an American Football and then serve. Serena says her dad made her do it a lot. It's hard to throw a spiral with a stiff arm which is what I get when I see him try to muscle the serve and thus get less rotation.

Just wondering if your videos are for us to understand what is going on.

And, just to finish here, even though I tend to not like to reduce a stroke to its parts. I do it all the time myself.

Thanks for all your explanations!

So my question is:

Do you use other sport movements to help a stroke outside of tennis?

Arturo: My unsolicited two cents: I like to use the throwing actions like you mentioned to help players get the feel of muscle sequencing in the hitting arm. Some actions of a football throw cross over to the serve. However not all of a football or racket throwing action will duplicate the tennis serve throwing action and you have the added timing of the toss and leg actions. Jumping to throw a football or racket is different from a non-jumping throw. The question is whether it is worthwhile to practice a crossover movement that just duplicates part of a larger movement. I once had a baseball player tell me that mimicing a screwball pitch motion helped him with the natural ISR part of the serve. But he had no concept of jumping upward and how an upward release of the racket could direct the ball downward.

[arturohernandez]

Arturo: My unsolicited two cents: I like to use the throwing actions like you mentioned to help players get the feel of muscle sequencing in the hitting arm. Some actions of a football throw cross over to the serve. However not all of a football or racket throwing action will duplicate the tennis serve throwing action and you have the added timing of the toss and leg actions. Jumping to throw a football or racket is different from a non-jumping throw. The question is whether it is worthwhile to practice a crossover movement that just duplicates part of a larger movement. I once had a baseball player tell me that mimicing a screwball pitch motion helped him with the natural ISR part of the serve. But he had no concept of jumping upward and how an upward release of the racket could direct the ball downward.

Good points! Eventually, the whole motion has to be put together. And judging from my own experience, that is much harder to do. For about six months, I served from the trophy. They were probably the best first serving days of my adult life. But my second serve was not as good and I was limited in what I could do.

So, yes, it is really hard to break up into pieces. However, I feel that kind of stepping out of the court in a way helps. So I tend to think alternating one thing with another helps.

One of the biggest problems for me is to transition from hand/foot sports to instrument sports.

Maybe that is where I think practicing physical movements and then trying to transfer them to tennis might help.

But as you noted it all has to be put together eventually.

[doctorhl]

Arturo, Perhaps there is some value in shooting a little video to let a person see their natural throwing action. I was told( by my Dad) at a very young age that my baseball throwing action looked peculiar. In addition, my career as a quarterback ended in middle school because of a poor throwing action and slow release( though accurate). To this day, even with practice and an advanced knowledge base, I still don’t have a comfortable throwing action in my serve and certainly didn’t sequence it correctly with the legs. Any tournament success with tennis in high school and collegiate tennis was due to countless hours of practice of ”muscleing” the throwing action in the serve.

[arturohernandez]

Arturo, Perhaps there is some value in shooting a little video to let a person see their natural throwing action. I was told( by my Dad) at a very young age that my baseball throwing action looked peculiar. In addition, my career as a quarterback ended in middle school because of a poor throwing action and slow release( though accurate). To this day, even with practice and an advanced knowledge base, I still don’t have a comfortable throwing action in my serve and certainly didn’t sequence it correctly with the legs. Any tournament success with tennis in high school and collegiate tennis was due to countless hours of practice of ”muscleing” the throwing action in the serve.

Interesting, I am sure I have similar flaws. I used to muscle my serve all the time. In fact, I pretty much muscled every shot.

About ten years ago, I worked a lot on really serving slow and loose. This is usually how I warm up and as soon as I feel that my serve goes out of whack I go back to slow and smooth. I have even practiced serving just over the net.

I find that if I serve a lot, I begin to muscle it. So as soon as I feel tension, I try really hard to relax my arm. It is a constant battle to remind myself that I have to be really loose with my serve. That I cannot control all the little tiny movements that makeup a serve.

The feeling I get is that I have no idea where my serve is going or if it will be in. I have no control over the shot itself. When I serve this way, the ball just spins more and it seems to really bother people.

I am not sure I could pull this off as a young adult or teenager. It literally means having to let go and trust that my body knows better than my mind.