John's Topspin Articles and Some Individual Examples.

[jimlosaltos]

I had fun contributing to John's two-part series on spin in pro tennis and its relevance to the average player.

His first piece is at this link: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...rn_heavy_ball/
And his second article is here: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...pin_your_game/

In particular I was struck by John quantifying something I had suspected was true -- That Rafa's spin, once nearly unique, is being matched by more and more players. Beyond that, that the top spin rates haven't really changed with the equipment as we would guess. Perhaps the strings and rackets have made that spin more widely accessible but not greater? Or the new equipment encouraged pros to develop technique that enables higher spin?

Here are two images from today's play (Wed June 2) at Roland Garros that might interest TPN readers. These are two winners by Stefanos Tsitsipas vs Martinez, one on each side.

First, we have a 114 MPH forehand winner at 3,921 RPM. That's heavy.

filedata/fetch?id=94025&d=1622660122&type=thumb

But look at this on the backhand side. A winner at 107 MPH. (No spin listed, but his other backhand winners are in the 1,800 - 2,000 RPM range ).

filedata/fetch?id=94026&d=1622660122&type=thumb

Let me toss this in. It might interest people. For me, it's a puzzle. This is a table of the average spin and speed for Roger Federer's forehand by match, for the first 5 rounds at Miami, 2019. {Sidebar: The sharing of ATP stats with the public is extremely inconsistent. I use a number of Miami stats, because they were quite complete. This and many other stats were gathered in conjunction with a statistical guru and tennis fan that goes by the online name of @Vestige-du-jour. The screen caps shown above are from Roland-Garros.

You can see that the spin is remarkably consistent, although the average speed varied by over 10 mph. Just random or is there a reason?

filedata/fetch?id=94020&d=1622659487&type=thumb

#

[stroke]

Yes, I have also noticed that players like Tsitsipas, Ruud, Berrettini, Fognini, FAA, have certainly matched Rafa in rpm's. What makes Rafa unique to me is his hook spin, and how that spin expands the court. To me, it is unique. It is most evident when he attacks a right handers backhand, but he also uses it to bring the ball back into the court when he goes down the line. He is always it seems attacking the outside of the ball with his model type 3 forehand.

[don_budge]

You can see that the spin is remarkably consistent, although the average speed varied by over 10 mph. Just random or is there a reason?

Two variables...wind and opponent.

[jimlosaltos]

Yes, I have also noticed that players like Tsitsipas, Ruud, Berrettini, Fognini, FAA, have certainly matched Rafa in rpm's. What makes Rafa unique to me is his hook spin, and how that spin expands the court. To me, it is unique. It is most evident when he attacks a right handers backhand, but he also uses it to bring the ball back into the court when he goes down the line. He is always it seems attacking the outside of the ball with his model type 3 forehand.

Good point. I didn't want to distract here BUT sidespin is something that seems to go unquantified - with good reason.

Here's an odd source for tennis info <g> Billionaire Larry Ellison, of Indian Wells among other things, said that what struck him most about hitting with Rafa was the side spin and how the ball moved differently with every shot.

[jimlosaltos]

Here's another one I just stumbled on: 119 mph forehand by Tsitsipas today.

At a "paltry" 3,087 RPM. Short and wide. Try and run that one down <g>.

I wonder if this was one his of inside-in forehands? Brad Gilbert has said Tsitsi has the best inside-in in the game today. (Yeah, Rafa can argue).

filedata/fetch?id=94034&d=1622662635&type=thumb

[jimlosaltos]

Two variables...wind and opponent.

So, spin is a product of technique, but average speed more of environment?

[stotty]

Here's another one I just stumbled on: 119 mph forehand by Tsitsipas today.

At a "paltry" 3,087 RPM. Short and wide. Try and run that one down <g>.

I wonder if this was one his of inside-in forehands? Brad Gilbert has said Tsitsi has the best inside-in in the game today. (Yeah, Rafa can argue).

filedata/fetch?id=94034&d=1622662635&type=thumb

Amazing speed...119mph. Don't think I could hit a ball that hard even if I didn't have to get it in.

[tenniscoach1]

I had fun contributing to John's two-part series on spin in pro tennis and its relevance to the average player.

His first piece is at this link: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...rn_heavy_ball/
And his second article is here: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...pin_your_game/

In particular I was struck by John quantifying something I had suspected was true -- That Rafa's spin, once nearly unique, is being matched by more and more players. Beyond that, that the top spin rates haven't really changed with the equipment as we would guess. Perhaps the strings and rackets have made that spin more widely accessible but not greater? Or the new equipment encouraged pros to develop technique that enables higher spin?

Here are two images from today's play (Wed June 2) at Roland Garros that might interest TPN readers. These are two winners by Stefanos Tsitsipas vs Martinez, one on each side.

First, we have a 114 MPH forehand winner at 3,921 RPM. That's heavy.

filedata/fetch?id=94025&d=1622660122&type=thumb

But look at this on the backhand side. A winner at 107 MPH. (No spin listed, but his other backhand winners are in the 1,800 - 2,000 RPM range ).

filedata/fetch?id=94026&d=1622660122&type=thumb

Let me toss this in. It might interest people. For me, it's a puzzle. This is a table of the average spin and speed for Roger Federer's forehand by match, for the first 5 rounds at Miami, 2019. {Sidebar: The sharing of ATP stats with the public is extremely inconsistent. I use a number of Miami stats, because they were quite complete. This and many other stats were gathered in conjunction with a statistical guru and tennis fan that goes by the online name of @Vestige-du-jour. The screen caps shown above are from Roland-Garros.

You can see that the spin is remarkably consistent, although the average speed varied by over 10 mph. Just random or is there a reason?

filedata/fetch?id=94020&d=1622659487&type=thumb

#

looks like Jim does his research and doesn't speak with his head up his ass. Jim - where did you get these graphs from - you have a link. You know what you are doing sir.

[jimlosaltos]

looks like Jim does his research and doesn't speak with his head up his ass. Jim - where did you get these graphs from - you have a link. You know what you are doing sir.

Thank you! Glad you found these interesting. The orange graphics come from the InfoSys Match Center. You've got to fiddle a bit to get there. Go to the table of stats and "Match Beat", then pick "CourtVision" in the middle of the page. Once you're there, pick winners, etc.

[tenniscoach1]

Can you send the links ...

[jimlosaltos]

Can you send the links ...

There is no, one link. You have to go to the results for each, individual match, then drill down in this fashion.

For the Men's Final, start here:

https://www.rolandgarros.com/en-us/matches/2021/SM001#TAB-CourtVision

General Process:

Top menu/ Tournament / click on the match you want to look at / click on "Courtvision" / select either player / select a category such as "Winners" / click on any, individual "W" in a circle icon to get the data in the images I shared. Yes, it is that tedious to get data on each and every shot Somewhere there is a database listing this, but I don't see any way for the public to access that.



Hope this helps. / jim

[jimlosaltos]

Can you send the links ...

Sorry for not responding sooner. I no longer get alerts if someone addresses me in the forum, not since the redesign.

I try to be responsive, but I have to scroll around to find messages and if the post is older I stop looking.