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2021 Internazionali BNL d'Italia...ATP 1000...Rome, Italy

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  • #31
    Novak makes 10 winners and 1 unforced error in routinely winning the 3rd set. Not a huge surprise there.

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    • #32
      Great third set by Novak. He went straight into the usual lockdown, which has become his trademark. Great serving when it counted. Not the hardest serve on the tour but there is nothing silly going on with that motion of his, which helps in the tightest of moments.

      It's a late afternoon final which is handy for Novak as he will need the time to recover. Novak could do with a win tomorrow as it will get in Rafa's head a little and make the upcoming FO feel less of a foregone conclusion.

      Stotty

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      • #33
        Oddsmakers have Rafa at 66% implied probability of winning. Pretty strong. Nadal is the only player I can think of that never lets a game go, much less a ser. Roger to me was his equal in this regard until very recently in his loss to Bash. He actually let that 2nd set go. He can be forgiven ha. It took a very long time for it to happen. Rafa is only 34+.
        Last edited by stroke; 05-15-2021, 01:23 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by stroke View Post
          Oddsmakers have Rafa at 66% implied probability of winning. Pretty strong. Nadal is the only player I can think of that never lets a game go, much less a ser. Roger to me was his equal in this regard until very recently in his loss to Bash. He actually let that 2nd set go. He can be forgiven ha. It took a very long time for it to happen. Rafa is only 34+.
          I don't remember Borg or Connors letting games go either. I have seen Roger let the odd game go. Letting the odd game go can be a smart thing to do. It can be a way of preserving oneself for an upcoming bigger game...or just a good way economise. Relentlessness is the game style of Nadal as it was Borg. It is of Roger to a degree but it isn't so essential for him. He seldom goes away but I have seen him let games, sets, and even matches, go.

          Novak lapses and comes and goes yet no one can be as error-free from the baseline as he when he locks down.

          The psychology of the Big 3 is just so interesting. They each have such incredible qualities.

          I am hoping Tsitsipas can rise above the pack but he fell a little short today.
          Stotty

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          • #35
            I like Stef a lot, but he does not seem to be on the level of the 3. I do think he and Sinner are the closest. Nadal it is most simple. All he cares about is winning the next point. And he cares about that next point a lot.
            Last edited by stroke; 05-15-2021, 04:02 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by stotty View Post

              I don't remember Borg or Connors letting games go either. I have seen Roger let the odd game go. Letting the odd game go can be a smart thing to do. It can be a way of preserving oneself for an upcoming bigger game...or just a good way economise. Relentlessness is the game style of Nadal as it was Borg. It is of Roger to a degree but it isn't so essential for him. He seldom goes away but I have seen him let games, sets, and even matches, go.

              Novak lapses and comes and goes yet no one can be as error-free from the baseline as he when he locks down.

              The psychology of the Big 3 is just so interesting. They each have such incredible qualities.

              I am hoping Tsitsipas can rise above the pack but he fell a little short today.
              I do remember one match Lendl vs Connors, during the 3 years or so Lendl dominated men's tennis, where he played Connors and pretty much took away Connors's will in the match. They did not like each other, as we all know, and Lendl went out of his way to embarrass Connors in the match. Lendl went for no winners, he just hit the ball back in play as if to say to Connors, I don't have to do anything to beat you, you have nothing in your game to hurt me. I can still remember Connors post match interview. He was livid and his interview seemed to reveal he knew exactly what Lendl did out there.

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              • #37
                34 bounces on his second service point (first and second serves)...Novak Djokovic.
                don_budge
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                • #38
                  Rafa wins...35 bounces on his second service point (first and second serves).
                  don_budge
                  Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                  • #39


                    Nadal wins 1st set 7-5. Nadal with 15 forehand winners. The Nadal forehand clearly the biggest weapon on the court. If Novak cam come back now and somehow win the next 2 sets after the 2 very tough matches yesterday, it would certainly be one of his best wins ever.

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                    • #40


                      Big change in winners and errors stats for both players as Novak wins 2nd set.

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                      • #41


                        Winners and errors stats pretty much tell the story. Nadal wins.

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                        • #42
                          36/36/28, the Masters 1000 titles of the group that Novak called the "We are the Next Generation " players.

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                          • #43
                            I missed the final. I didn't give Novak much chance after the equivalent of a five setter with his two matches the day before. I thought it would be over in two after Rafa nailed the first set. Novak must have played a handy second set. I assume the unforced errors were due to Novak pressing?

                            We need Rafa to get a bit of bad luck at the FO to make it interesting. Like a five setter that Novak and Thiem played after being blown off the court in 50mph winds while Rafa went through scot free in his match with Roger. Novak and Thiem had to then complete their semi on the Saturday leaving Thiem zero chance in the final as he had nothing left in his legs after the first set.

                            As if Rafa isn't good enough at the FO he always gets his own way with the scheduling too apparently. That particular FO's scheduling was a disgrace.
                            Stotty

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by don_budge View Post

                              When teaching or analysing a service motion one must have a fundamentally sound approach that will lead you to sources of inconsistency or otherwise faulty friction producing issues. Thank you jyandell for this much anticipated view of the Stefanos Tsitsipas motion.

                              When I analyse or teach a serve it all boils down to the same thing...setup position, initiation of the backswing, the track of the backswing, transition and finally forwards swing. Once you finally get to the forwards swing that is more or less preordained by the sequence of events that have preceded it. It is no different with Stefanos Tsitsipas. It doesn't change anything from my perspective that he is ranked such and such in the world. Even that he hits it a ton and manages to hold serve X% of the time doesn't change anything. There is always room for improvement in a motion, unless it has achieved perfect frictionless motion. As in a rollercoaster. As it stands now...the motion of the Greek has loads of potential. Loads of room for improvement. It is beyond me why the father, who is his "coach", has not seen this enormous source of potential. The French coach, Patrick what's his name, seems to be clueless in the same regard.

                              When looking at the setup position of Stefanos, the first thing we will discuss is his grip. There are those who take great exception to the grip as if it is a source of issues or a problem of some sort. Personally, I don't have any issues with the grip. It is a bit strong perhaps but it has nothing to do with more important issues in the motion. I suppose one could make an argument in certain circles that the stronger grip might effect his ability to spin the ball or in the way it unleashes into impact, but these are minor exceptions. There have been great servers whose grips are somewhat less than optimal.

                              The issues I have with the setup is the placement of the feet. They seem to be somewhat haphazardly askew. The rear foot is pointing in a direction that is totally unrelated to the direction or aim of his serve. Why is this a problem? Because the alignment of the feet are going to influence the "track" of the backswing. Too bad there isn't a rear view of the serve. Rear views are always preferred when it comes to analysing strokes or swings. You get a better sense of alignment and the "track" of the swing. Feet are simply shoulder width apart and the line that the toes of both feet make is the aim of the server. Most importantly the track of the backswing is on a line in front of the toes parallel to the line the toes create.

                              I don't care for the way that Stefanos holds the ball in his left hand against the strings of his racquet. I prefer the left hand holding the racquet up with the last two or three fingers at the throat of the racquet. In this way there is connection to the racquet with both hands and therefore both sides of the body at the very beginning of the motion. He seems to be somewhat disconnected from the very onset. From my point of view the real issues of Stefanos are rooted in his left hand's participation of the swing. The real issue is, as John points out and I have pointed out numerous times in discussing his motion, is the abbreviated tossing motion which plays real havoc with the entire motion. You see, by abbreviation of the tossing motion you have to do something with the other side of the equation to keep it balanced and the other side of the equation in the service motion just happens to be the backswing. Stefanos makes two rather clumsy attempts to get both sides working together by abbreviation of his backswing in a most awkward movement and by tossing the ball too high to give himself time to complete his entire swing. By creating a shorten tossing motion he has robbed himself of some valuable time to make his entire swing.

                              The backswing really doesn't make any sense to me at all. With the faulty setup and the time killing tossing motion he doesn't even give himself a chance to make the correct backswing which is a free falling motion of the racquet head from setup position onto the track I defined above. There isn't any point in discussing the rest of his swing until he makes the adjustments in his setup and his toss. I don't have any issues at all with the dispersion of his tosses. In fact, I think it is a very good idea to learn to toss the ball in different spots to promote spin and placement. It also can be used a an excellent form of deception to the opponent. For instance, the serve in the deuce court might toss the ball far to his right to give the opponent the sense of impending wide slicing serve but the server can with training learn to hit the flat ball up the T from this position. I also think it a good idea to move the position around on the baseline to promote angles...and deception. These fundamental ideas are very doable if the server possesses a perfect, frictionless motion. Such a motion opens up an entire world of possibilities for the server tactics and permutations and combinations.

                              The "fix" for Tsitsipas is to get him aligned properly and to get him toss the ball with a full range of motion with the left hand. Then you go to work on a more full range of motion with the back swing which transitions with the seamless glide into the forwards swing. Obviously as it stands, Stefanos gets by quite well with this rather herky jerky motion. Even the way he finishes his swing in the video suggests that he way off balance and fights to maintain his balance in his follow through. The million dollar question is...how good could it possibly be? Taking into account his physique and the beautiful way in which he hits his backhand...he has tons of potential. I would love to see this motion in the stroke archives where the frame by frame option is available.
                              Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                              Stefanos allows himself to get in a big struggle on his serve and Djokovic somewhat predictably prevails. I believe Novak converted on the fourth set point. So here's the deal. As the serve goes, so does the rest of the game. Stefanos noticeably lost his rhythm in the second set with his serve and it isn't that his serve is so terrible...it's just that he is up against the best returner in the world who is going to capitalise on the smallest of margins.

                              In these situations, where he is up a break and rolling there is no reason to not be able to continue to do so and just make a nice neat package out of it while serving out the match. But nerves start to play a role in the thing and this little bit of friction in the motion doesn't feel quite right and the mind starts to play little tricks on you. Now the opponent senses something is not so definitive in the deliveries and he gains in confidence and is emboldened to take liberties. Stefanos...up a break in the second and ends up losing by being broken in two of his last three service games.

                              A Richard Gonzalez or a Roger Federer is smelling the finish line and the motion and the serve just get better and better. You start mowing down opponents from this position. Stefanos exhibits some truly great athleticism and talent. Some of the saves he made under the pressure were stellar. His backhand is just glorious at times. The forehand devastating. But the key to the whole enchilada is the serve. It is the serve that sets the pace. Stefanos has some real friction in his motion and it is going to get him in trouble and what is worse it is going to prevent him from fulfilling his potential as a tennis player.

                              Let's see how this plays out. Djokovic, the wily veteran that he is, has a new lease on this match. Stefanos still must find a way to get the horse in the barn. It's up for grabs. Novak clearly has a history of taking very good care of his service game. He can be very tidy. But his form has been just a bit shaky of late.
                              I saw some of the final. The first two service games set the tone of the match. The endless bouncing of the tennis ball. Nadal fastidiously holding onto his obsessive/compulsive routine like Dustin Hoffman in the "Rain Man". Just nauseating. Seriously...I just cannot imagine how the tennis world can watch this clown endlessly bouncing and picking at himself the way that he does. He seriously needs to be medicated. If he wasn't married I would suggest hooking him up with Greta Thunberg. The most obnoxious couple imaginable. I feel sorry for the woman that he is married to. I can only imagine his behaviour as a "normal" person. How narcissistic can a man be? He has to be impossible. A sickening individual.

                              Just how sickening is he? Well...in my book he makes Novak Djokovic look like the knight in shining armour. That is such a stretch in itself. Novak is another of the bouncing boys. At least he doesn't have the ticks and the picks. I watched some of the match and yada, yada, yada. Forehands and backhands. Throw in a drop shot just for funsies. The crowd oohs and ahhs. Just happy for something to break up the monotony, even though they are so dumbed down they don't realise it. It is as if everyone is in a hypnotic trance induced by the endless bouncing. Not to mention the mind numbing baseline rallies. Seriously...it is hard to fathom how a human being could sustain that ritual before every serving point. At some point a normal person would have to ask themselves if this is normal. They would get a sense of how incredibly ridiculous it is in the big picture of things. They would eventually realise that they look like a truly reprehensible moron. But Nadal doesn't have that problem. He has no concept of what he looks like and he doesn't care. He's a bubble boy. He's pissed that the ball kids won't get his damned towel for him. I have two words for Rafael Nadal and his career...who cares?

                              The big takeaway from this tournament is the service motion of Stefanos Tsitsipas that I have written extensively about and criticised rather roundly. Interestingly enough if you are paying attention you see that there is a definite correlation to what I have said about it. This kid is coming on strong and eating his way up the food chain of the game. Progressing quite nicely everyone would say and the announcers and fans are just gushing over him. He's a real darling alright. But his serve has cost him big time and it isn't as if he doesn't serve well at times. But the glitches that create the friction in his motion have a way of rearing their ugly little head just when he needs it to be "perfect". It was never more apparent or obvious in his loss to Novak Djokovic in the semis. The margins are so fine one cannot afford to give away points, games, sets or matches on the tour. The margins are so small...as stroke says now and again. Look at how the lines are called with the electronic devices. Millimetres. Silly little millimetres.

                              The Tsitsipas game is designed for a certain style of play. That style requires a serve of "Federesque" proportions. Roger alone shows the ability to hold serve on a wham, bam, thank you m'am basis. Once he gets the break in the bag he just starts rolling and clipping the lines here and there. Mixing up the angle...the aim. Ducks all perfectly in a row. This is how the Tsitsipas game was designed to be played. Novak and Fafa don't need perfect motions as there are just baseline robots and that is how they play the game. Stefanos is a bird of a different feather. With a well greased perfect motion his entire game would be at least one notch better and in the "stroke" world of the slimmest of margins he might just find himself to be the inherited of the crown. The Roger Federer crown.

                              Novak Djokovic was fit to be had and Tsitsipas only had to hold serve to bag him. He failed on numerous occasions as he became somewhat tentative in the clutch not to mention inconsistent. Once you are in position to serve things out it has to be...first serve in on the first point. Knock your opponent out of the court and finish him with one shot...maybe two. Next point...same thing. Knock him out of the court and just hammer him. But Tsitsipas doesn't knock his opponent out of the court enough. Rarely on the second serve as well. Roger is going for it on the second as well once he is in position to serve it out. He has the pedal to the metal and doesn't show any sign of backing off a bit because of nerves. His motion is so good that it just gets better when the nerves might come into play. The oil and the slick delivery comes up with the right combination of speed, spin and placement. His cunning "serving mind" is working on all eight cylinders as well...calculation on the run. STEFANOS!!! You've got to be like that. Once your career is all said and done you do not want to lament that "if only I had worked out the kinks". Get a coach who knows what he is doing. Not one of the celebrity coaches the top players put in their players box as an ornament to make faces as the match plays out. Get a coach who knows what the hell is going on. Or not.

                              Nadal vs. Djokovic. Novak looked like the white knight. It's funny though...these are the only two players on the tour that I can think of that bounce the ball so obsessively when they are serving. Am I wrong? I don't have to ask.
                              Last edited by don_budge; 05-17-2021, 12:40 PM. Reason: for clarities sake...
                              don_budge
                              Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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