The Heavy Ball in Modern Pro Tennis

[johnyandell]

Would love to hear your thoughts on my article, "The Heavy Ball in Modern Pro Tennis"

[bababa]

Very very informative!!

[jeremy93]

I think players 20+ years ago had to hit flatter since the strings etc. wouldn’t allow for much power and the “heavy ball” could only be so heavy. This is why the ball speed being similar to many years ago does not surprise me so much. Great article, very interesting.

[giammalva]

Can only velocity and spin affect the feeling of impact or the "weight" of the ball?

Can someone transfer more "weight" on a ball without increasing velocity or spin by using legs, hips, torso rather than just arms? It does not logically seem possible but as a player, I perceive that weight from other player and feel like I can put more weight on the ball. It is likely a misperception but think most competitive players would say some players hit heavier and not necessarily faster or with more spin.

[arturohernandez]

Can only velocity and spin affect the feeling of impact or the "weight" of the ball?

Can someone transfer more "weight" on a ball without increasing velocity or spin by using legs, hips, torso rather than just arms? It does not logically seem possible but as a player, I perceive that weight from other player and feel like I can put more weight on the ball. It is likely a misperception but think most competitive players would say some players hit heavier and not necessarily faster or with more spin.

There is this old article on Sampras vs. Rusedski serve were they discuss the issue of weight on the ball. It appears that at least on the serve, Sampras had more topspin and that added to the heaviness. Not sure if other studies have been done with groundstrokes as well.

I have been reading tennis player for years and have always emphasized the importance of topspin on the serve on my kids serves. Both of them don't have the fastest serves but there is a heaviness component which is deceptive. There are times when if I just hit the return and don't try to control the ball, it flies off of my racket. Other times I cannot hit it clean and it will land in the net. So I have to be very careful to hit it clean and try to control the spin.

Maybe the heaviness has to do with the amount of true topspin on the ball which would come from a particular way of hitting it.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/speed_and_spin/speed_and_spin.html

[glacierguy]

The mechanics of rotation are not taught as routinely as the mechanics of linear motion, so sometimes we struggle to describe what's going on with a spinning body. The energy of a spinning tennis ball is the sum of its linear kinetic energy 1/2*m*v*v (m = mass, v = velocity) and its rotational kinetic energy 1/2*I*w*w (I=moment of inertia, w=angular velocity). So a spinning tennis ball has more total energy than a non-spinning ball travelling at the same speed. If you tried to catch the spinning ball, and stop all velocity and all spin, you'd expend more energy than if you caught the non-spinning ball. You'd feel the difference - heaviness. It's similar when you try to hit the ball with a tennis racquet. Note that it doesn't matter around which axis the ball is spinning - any spin will add to the total energy of the ball.

[doctorhl]

GG: Does a spinning ball compress more against the ground than a non spinning ball? Does incoming spin give a larger angle of deflection off the court? I think the increased rebound angle off the court results in less compression on one’s strings and gives that “ it flew off my racket” feeling we get, especially on clay. However, when I have to VOLLEY a ball hit with heavy topspin, it feels like it crawls downward on my racket and I really have to accelerate the racket head forward to avoid hitting the ball in the net.

[arturohernandez]

GG: Does a spinning ball compress more against the ground than a non spinning ball? Does incoming spin give a larger angle of deflection off the court? I think the increased rebound angle off the court results in less compression on one’s strings and gives that “ it flew off my racket” feeling we get, especially on clay. However, when I have to VOLLEY a ball hit with heavy topspin, it feels like it crawls downward on my racket and I really have to accelerate the racket head forward to avoid hitting the ball in the net.

This explains why sometimes my daughter volleys straight into the net. She played mixed and sometimes did not understand why the balls were going in the net. It might be that boys put more topspin than girls at least at the high school level.

[glacierguy]

GG: Does a spinning ball compress more against the ground than a non spinning ball? Does incoming spin give a larger angle of deflection off the court? I think the increased rebound angle off the court results in less compression on one’s strings and gives that “ it flew off my racket” feeling we get, especially on clay. However, when I have to VOLLEY a ball hit with heavy topspin, it feels like it crawls downward on my racket and I really have to accelerate the racket head forward to avoid hitting the ball in the net.

I don't have all the answers doctorhl, but to your first question, I would say that a topspun ball will bounce higher off the court because the lift coefficient is negative which has the effect of giving the ball an extra push into the ground (over and above the normal effect of gravity). The opposite is the case for a sliced ball (it won't hit the court so hard and will bounce less high). As for your experience of volleying an incoming heavy topspin, it may be that any delay in achieving contact gives time for the ball to dip lower than anticipated and evade your sweet spot?

[glacierguy]

The mechanics of rotation are not taught as routinely as the mechanics of linear motion, so sometimes we struggle to describe what's going on with a spinning body. The energy of a spinning tennis ball is the sum of its linear kinetic energy 1/2*m*v*v (m = mass, v = velocity) and its rotational kinetic energy 1/2*I*w*w (I=moment of inertia, w=angular velocity). So a spinning tennis ball has more total energy than a non-spinning ball travelling at the same speed. If you tried to catch the spinning ball, and stop all velocity and all spin, you'd expend more energy than if you caught the non-spinning ball. You'd feel the difference - heaviness. It's similar when you try to hit the ball with a tennis racquet. Note that it doesn't matter around which axis the ball is spinning - any spin will add to the total energy of the ball.

Now I'm thinking about this, I might as well add that the extra 'heaviness' from spin is only felt if you oppose the spin. So if you slice an incoming topspin, it won't feel as heavy as if you were to try and topspin an incoming topspin. Incoming slice is more complicated because the bounce may introduce an opposing rotation to the slice, and result in a 'topspinning' ball at contact.

[arturohernandez]

Now I'm thinking about this, I might as well add that the extra 'heaviness' from spin is only felt if you oppose the spin. So if you slice an incoming topspin, it won't feel as heavy as if you were to try and topspin an incoming topspin. Incoming slice is more complicated because the bounce may introduce an opposing rotation to the slice, and result in a 'topspinning' ball at contact.

I guess that is how Ash Barty is making her living these days. And how Federer made his living when he first came on tour...

[doctorhl]

Now I'm thinking about this, I might as well add that the extra 'heaviness' from spin is only felt if you oppose the spin. So if you slice an incoming topspin, it won't feel as heavy as if you were to try and topspin an incoming topspin. Incoming slice is more complicated because the bounce may introduce an opposing rotation to the slice, and result in a 'topspinning' ball at contact.

I think this concept is why I am having difficulty with hitting different types of dropshots.....not paying enough attention to the incoming speed and type of spin to determine whether I should try and hit a “cut” drop( which has great deception) or a “soft hands” drop. I can’t remember the correct shot terminology.

[tennisskip1515]

Obviously late to this topic, but will add this thought regardless: assuming that "average" rpm's means across the entire range of forehands or backhands hit by a player, I'd wager that the average has increased not so much by the maximum available (as Yandell's article suggests), but by the increased amount of spin created in more hitting situations. Strings, grips, and swing paths have made it possible to hit with significant topspin, today, in situations where such topspin wasn't available years ago. Or, in a related twist, players hadn't yet figured out how to create such topspin in those situations as they were still responding w/older paradigms of how to hit such-and-such a shot from their opponent. More shots hit w/more topspin = higher average rpm's

[johnyandell]

tennisskip,
probably correct...