Your Strokes: Anthony Forehand

[arturohernandez]

I agree with both views. Kids should have fun and they should enjoy tennis. It's not about becoming a pro. However, I see some kids out there playing tennis that thought they saw one thing but in fact it was another. The idea that the ground is really important for hitting a ball does not go against the idea of having fun.

There seems to be this idea out there that we should speed everything up. That children should start being like adults as kids. Rafa's forehand is similar but to me it looks a lot simpler. If we start really simple, then kids have the chance to grow into their strokes. It's a similar idea in school. Give them the basics and then let them go from there.

I suppose we are arguing the same thing. Let kids be kids. You guys seem to be focusing on the have fun part and I am focusing on the keep it simple part.

The purpose of tennis for the majority is not about being a pro player. Otherwise, none of us would play.

Thanks John for starting such a long conversation!

[doctorhl]

Guys,
I appreciate the passion in this thread. Always surprised at what stimulates discussion in the Forum. But this is a 10 year old kid who loves tennis. He's not shooting for Wimbledon so far as I know. No need to put him on the future pro training program at this point. He likes hitting tennis balls and having fun doing it. If I started him it might have been a different model but the point is this is what he developed on his own and who is to say that whatever happens for him in tennis it won't work out or that it won't be a happy life.

Agree. Much of coaching is the art of knowing how long of a leash to put on a kid and guide, but not kill the enthusiasm and love of the sport. The individual sport coach must tailor the leash length and adjust it constantly while making it look like the reins are not held too tight. One of the difficulties in coaching team sports is having the ability to coach players individually while at the same time making it look like you are treating all players the same......a tough task for the coach. And my experience has been that the more elite the athlete, the longer the leash. Why? Probably because the elite usually have more time and ego invested. But.......Harry Hopman, as I understand it , treated his tennis players more like a team sport and kept a short leas. But was the leas on things other than playing style? Perhaps the Davis Cup was just not suited for the individualistic players of today. What say you guys who coach every day?

[johnyandell]

Guys,
I appreciate the passion in this thread. Always surprised at what stimulates discussion in the Forum. But this is a 10 year old kid who loves tennis. He's not shooting for Wimbledon so far as I know. No need to put him on the future pro training program at this point. He likes hitting tennis balls and having fun doing it. If I started him it might have been a different model but the point is this is what he developed on his own and who is to say that whatever happens for him in tennis it won't work out or that it won't be a happy life.

[don_budge]

Well if I paid a coach to help my son's forehand, I think I'd want my money back with that advice. Not exactly helping Anthony in the sport he has chosen to pursue. But I'm assuming your post was mostly humorous.

You'd be wrong. Ask the father what he thinks. Herb Krickstein and I had many excellent discussions about his son Aaron at ten years old. I talked to the mother as well. They had me on board for a reason and it wasn't to pay me the big bucks so you can take that money and stick it where the "son" don't shine. Whether it is yours or the father's. I stand by what I wrote based on the video.

Coaches and anyone associated with the game or sport of tennis are so afraid to "bite the hand that feeds you" they will tiptoe around the real issue only to insure another umpteen hours of "lessons" in lieu of real athletic training. This is a boy who will someday hopefully grow up to be a man. Teach him to be a man. Enrol him in martial arts as well. A tennis match is a dog fight. So is life. He may want to show up with sun glasses and a baseball cap on backwards but if he is my boy it would be otherwise. This business of "the sport he has chosen to pursue" sounds like the PC drivel of modern times. He's not old enough. He's still wet behind the ears. I hope he chooses to be a man someday. That will depend on the parenting, I suppose.

I am a performance analyst. I describe what I see and project the way going forwards. I don't agree or disagree and I think your comment was very, very amusing. Objectively speaking, of course.

It's funny video. With the shades and the backwards baseball cap one could relegate it to "America's Funniest Home Videos". It is interesting at the same time. One might just take it a bit too seriously. Just because he is hitting some of the points often associated with the "modern forehand". At this point, it most certainly must be considered "all hat and no cattle", as tennis_chiro once said. The first keys are as John points out in the athleticism or rather the lack of it. It looks rote...rehearsed.

Put him through the hockeyscout curriculum of training the athlete for the future. Give him a year of seasoning in that respect. Lots of running and jumping and playing with balls. Develop the athlete...parallel to the tennis player. Anything said about Anthony at this point is inconclusive. What will matter is the path going forwards. I really don't approve of the footwork at all. He must be taught to step to the ball before all of the modern mumbo jumbo. Open stance...semi-open. The transfer of weight is the single most important facet of anything in sports. He must step to the ball before all of the twisting...and shouting.

I would prescribe lots of basketball, soccer, skating and skiing. Balance. Nimble movement. Footwork. Then get your ass in position. He is standing straight up instead of being down in a nice athletic position. Don't tell him I said so. He's a little kid. Guide him and teach him to play. It will make a man of him. It is a great submission. An interesting video...possibly to take more seriously in the future. Maybe when he is fourteen and as mean as a cat.

[stotty]

Based on this video, Rafa at 12 looks pretty much like the Rafa of today. Minus the biceps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP5hzYkbU0s

This is invariably the case when viewing clips of greats playing as kids. Their shots generally have the same shape but are just less refined and rough around the edges. I find it very insightful to watch players like Novak and Rafa as kids. Makes you realise what a process becoming a great player is and how impossible it is to pick a kid out as a potential champion from a young age.

[stroke]

Based on this video, Rafa at 12 looks pretty much like the Rafa of today. Minus the biceps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP5hzYkbU0s

Jeff, could not agree more. "There's that".

[jeffreycounts]

Sorry to sound like a broken record here. But what is missing are videos of children getting older and then looking at how their forehands progress from young to old. I know that most academies and pros have a good idea of what the progression is.

I am a little worried that trying to hit an adult shot as a child has its pitfalls. What would be great would be to see any pro with an ATP forehand hitting forehands as a 10 year old. Would it look like Anthony's or not? Is there only one route to a nice "modern" adult forehand? Or are there multiple routes?

Based on this video, Rafa at 12 looks pretty much like the Rafa of today. Minus the biceps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP5hzYkbU0s

[jeffreycounts]

I would prescribe lots of basketball, soccer, skating and skiing. Balance. Nimble movement. Footwork. Then get your ass in position.

Well if I paid a coach to help my son's forehand, I think I'd want my money back with that advice. Not exactly helping Anthony in the sport he has chosen to pursue. But I'm assuming your post was mostly humorous.

[arturohernandez]

It's funny video. With the shades and the backwards baseball cap one could relegate it to "America's Funniest Home Videos". It is interesting at the same time. One might just take it a bit too seriously. Just because he is hitting some of the points often associated with the "modern forehand". At this point, it most certainly must be considered "all hat and no cattle", as tennis_chiro once said. The first keys are as John points out in the athleticism or rather the lack of it. It looks rote...rehearsed.

Put him through the hockeyscout curriculum of training the athlete for the future. Give him a year of seasoning in that respect. Lots of running and jumping and playing with balls. Develop the athlete...parallel to the tennis player. Anything said about Anthony at this point is inconclusive. What will matter is the path going forwards. I really don't approve of the footwork at all. He must be taught to step to the ball before all of the modern mumbo jumbo. Open stance...semi-open. The transfer of weight is the single most important facet of anything in sports. He must step to the ball before all of the twisting...and shouting.

I would prescribe lots of basketball, soccer, skating and skiing. Balance. Nimble movement. Footwork. Then get your ass in position. He is standing straight up instead of being down in a nice athletic position. Don't tell him I said so. He's a little kid. Guide him and teach him to play. It will make a man of him. It is a great submission. An interesting video...possibly to take more seriously in the future. Maybe when he is fourteen and as mean as a cat.

Sorry to sound like a broken record here. But what is missing are videos of children getting older and then looking at how their forehands progress from young to old. I know that most academies and pros have a good idea of what the progression is.

I am a little worried that trying to hit an adult shot as a child has its pitfalls. What would be great would be to see any pro with an ATP forehand hitting forehands as a 10 year old. Would it look like Anthony's or not? Is there only one route to a nice "modern" adult forehand? Or are there multiple routes?

[don_budge]

Is that excessive low to high or just the spin dial backward rotation before the wiper? I still think that improving the turn and the stance are the first keys and might correct other stuff naturally.

It's funny video. With the shades and the backwards baseball cap one could relegate it to "America's Funniest Home Videos". It is interesting at the same time. One might just take it a bit too seriously. Just because he is hitting some of the points often associated with the "modern forehand". At this point, it most certainly must be considered "all hat and no cattle", as tennis_chiro once said. The first keys are as John points out in the athleticism or rather the lack of it. It looks rote...rehearsed.

Put him through the hockeyscout curriculum of training the athlete for the future. Give him a year of seasoning in that respect. Lots of running and jumping and playing with balls. Develop the athlete...parallel to the tennis player. Anything said about Anthony at this point is inconclusive. What will matter is the path going forwards. I really don't approve of the footwork at all. He must be taught to step to the ball before all of the modern mumbo jumbo. Open stance...semi-open. The transfer of weight is the single most important facet of anything in sports. He must step to the ball before all of the twisting...and shouting.

I would prescribe lots of basketball, soccer, skating and skiing. Balance. Nimble movement. Footwork. Then get your ass in position. He is standing straight up instead of being down in a nice athletic position. Don't tell him I said so. He's a little kid. Guide him and teach him to play. It will make a man of him. It is a great submission. An interesting video...possibly to take more seriously in the future. Maybe when he is fourteen and as mean as a cat.

[stotty]

Antony has a great foundation to build on in my view. He has almost certainly learned by watching and emulating others and is probably a good visual learner. For a 10-year-old, everything is on track to developing a really good forehand. Obviously there is still much to perfect. One thing I would have him do is practice plenty of reps starting from the outside backswing position with the racket tip raised slightly above the hand. It's good to have a child 'feel' that sequence of events right at the most critical moment. You'd figure a kid like Antony might cotton onto things pretty quick once he feels the flip happening.

The modern forehand trumps the classic forehand every time IF a player has the ability to pull it off. There is no halfway house for me. If you are going to go modern, learn it properly and execute it well.

[jthb1021]

Definitely don’t scrap it and start over! At 10 he’s on a great track! I totally agree with the left arm stretch and the left arm in general has no clue compared with the advanced elements he’s incorporating with the racquet hand. There is a lot of good stuff being said about this forehand and I will enjoy following this one, but keep hitting it Anthony. Good for his dad getting another opinion too!

[stroke]

I’ve never seen it. But even if you did, the racket face would definitely not tilt open as you came up. Even a slice forehand wouldn’t be that open on contact imo. If you watch the ball after contact it goes straight up in the air because of the open face.

Copy.that. I think BG would have some reservations regarding his model type 3 and what is going on here.

[jeffreycounts]

httpswww.tennisplayer.netmembershigh_speed_archivephantomRoger_Federer_HD_HSindex.htmldir=ForehandRF_FH_Inside_Out&str.png

Jeff, I think you are right. I don't think you ever see Fed or Nadal's racquet tip pointing towards the ground prior to the pull to contact.

I’ve never seen it. But even if you did, the racket face would definitely not tilt open as you came up. Even a slice forehand wouldn’t be that open on contact imo. If you watch the ball after contact it goes straight up in the air because of the open face.

Here the butt cap of Roger’s racket is about the level of the incoming ball. His racket face is tilted closed. That’s what you want in the slot position.

[arturohernandez]

“I wouldn't be surprised if this originated from the mistaken notion that you need an extreme low to high motion for topspin.”

John & Jeff: Any words of wisdom about short, very young kids tweaking their high to low (or spin dial backward rotation) swings. Many balls encountered are above the shoulders for the 10 & under group, but most seem to naturally adapt their swing plane as they grow taller and also gain the ability to hit many balls on the rise. But some get stuck.

Isn't that the argument for using softer balls with kids? It is better for them to hit the soft at waste height to develop good technique at a young age. As they get older they will then adapt the technique and still hit at waist level.

Clay courts are also thought to slow the ball and give kids more time to hit the ball. Rather than trying to ping-pong it like they do on hard courts. Or just moon ball and then move back all the time to hit it.