New Teaching Method: Slice Backhand Ball Flights

[johnyandell]

JT,
No need to justify to any of us! Your pedigree is impressive in any kind of larger world overview. Agreed about You Tube! And thanks for the good words. You understand the checkpoints theory well! Including the range of variations.

[doctorhl]

One more thing to me on the modern slice. I think it is a much stronger motion to execute. Think about if you were to have a hatchet in your hand and struck a piece of wood in front of you as would strike the ball in a classic slice backhand. Not a particularly strong motion. Now think about that hatchet striking the wood as you would strike the ball in an extreme slice. You would be hitting down with the hatchet blade into the wood, a very strong motion.

Stotty, That has been my experience in trying to learn the extreme slice.

[don_budge]

Clip of my angle of attack for extreme slice. Ball bounce will skid low. East to west spin increases when ball is contacted lower and racket tip is pointed downward. However, it is difficult for me to time the steep swing and get the “ bite” on the strings and subsequent skid bounce I want, because at my club level of play, I am not faced with counter reversing heavy amounts of topspin from opponents. Classic slice, therefore, is used more often.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XDqAME...ature=youtu.be

Nice shot doctorhl! Question for John. It looks to me that the grip doctorhl is using is rather a conservative continental. I asked jthb1021 the same question and he says that he uses a continental on the slice and strong eastern for the topspin drive. What are the pros using? Are they switching between continental and eastern too? What about the players in your article...Karsten, Scott and Giancarlo? This is an important factor, I believe.

[stroke]

Stotty, That has been my experience in trying to learn the extreme slice.

This was Stroke, not Stotty, but I can understand getting us crossed, we are both frequent posters ha

[johnyandell]

The slice grip can be anywhere from index knuckle on bevel 2 to the edge of bevel 3.

[doctorhl]

DB: I use a a edge of bevel 3 grip to close the racket face a little when contacting a high bouncing ball.

[don_budge]

Can someone direct me to the bevel grip system explanation?

[stroke]

JY is certainly the expert here, but to me, Fed uses a 1/2 type continental, where the heel of his hand is pretty much on bevel 1(the top of the grip) and his index knuckle is on bevel 2. I think Novak and Nadal are more of a 2/2.5 or so, to me an eastern leaning continental/soft continental. I much prefer Fed's grip. I think all the players that have the very best slice backhands use the Fed type continental grip.

[stotty]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/grips/modern_forehand_grip_variations_part1/modern_forehand_grip_variations_part1.html

[stotty]

Novak steps it up and it was a quick one in the end...dull game.

[stotty]

grips.jpg

[don_budge]

The slice grip can be anywhere from index knuckle on bevel 2 to the edge of bevel 3.

John...would you say that is pretty much continental? To the edge of bevel 3 being the weaker version. Depending upon where I put the heel of my hand on the butt of the racquet...I can still get my thumb up the backside of the racquet when my index knuckle is on bevel 2. I think this is fascinating stuff.

I believe when I am playing slice or underspin backhand my grip varies as well. As you state..."anywhere from". Maybe we should start referring to this as the underspin backhand because the range of spin and racquet head passing through the path of the ball ranges from driving the ball, chopping the ball, not to mention drop-shooting and lobbing. Throw in the volley and half volley. All variation of underspin.

To play the "underspin", you must be able to master all of the above to make this part of your game most effective. To maximise potential tactical possibilities. Tactically speaking, the underspin backhand is a defensive shot although not in the purest sense. Ken Rosewall basically drove the ball at times with a "modicum" of underspin. His ball would lie down or "shoot" through the surface depending upon his desired effect. The antithesis of the Donald Budge backhand with a modicum of overspin. This business of varying the grip for this shot opens up a wide spectrum of possibilities. From extreme underspin to chopping...which are two different methods. Extreme underspin being a shot hit with the face of the racquet wide open meeting the bottom of the ball. Chopping is hitting across the back of the ball at an angle greater than 45 degrees. It appears to me that the modern "slice" backhand is actually a chopping motion and one that is much more effective with modern equipment than you could ever of hoped for with the old standard wood racquet.

doctorhl exemplifies this with his comment of adjusting for high balls. What would you do for an extremely low ball that you barely reach running forwards? The opposite? Open up the face of the racquet to slide it under.

I think that this is an art form. One that has been lost through the engineering. But once again...it is Roger Federer "The Living Proof" who still has all of the shots in the bag. A high tennis IQ. Compared to the rest of the pack...a genius. But truthfully...this sort of stuff was standard issue in the "Classic Era" of tennis. The Nastases and McEnroes being classic examples of what used to be.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ons_part1.html

Thank you...stotty.

[J011yroger]

In my experience, one handers tend to slice with grips of continental or leaning towards Eastern BH because it's closer to their normal backhand grip and they often use slice to handle higher balls and serve returns, while two handers use grips of continental or leaning towards Eastern FH because they return serve and handle high balls with two hands using the slice to dig out low balls or wide ones. As the grip shifts towards EFH the racquet face opens allowing you to get under low skiddy balls better, and on the stretch a grip towards EFH points the racquet face back towards the center of the court more requiring less wrist flexion.

Same on volleys, reaching wide to the BH you shift the grip towards FH and reaching wide to the FH you shift the grip towards BH.

J

[doctorhl]

In my experience, one handers tend to slice with grips of continental or leaning towards Eastern BH because it's closer to their normal backhand grip and they often use slice to handle higher balls and serve returns, while two handers use grips of continental or leaning towards Eastern FH because they return serve and handle high balls with two hands using the slice to dig out low balls or wide ones. As the grip shifts towards EFH the racquet face opens allowing you to get under low skiddy balls better, and on the stretch a grip towards EFH points the racquet face back towards the center of the court more requiring less wrist flexion.

Same on volleys, reaching wide to the BH you shift the grip towards FH and reaching wide to the FH you shift the grip towards BH.

J

I suspect that these pro tournament video clips of “ bounce back to net” Backhand volleys were done with a grip shift from continental to semi western fh grip prior to contact as JO11yroger describes. I have used semi western fh grip to dig up a low sliced ball when pulled deep and wide and had to “slice Lob” on the Backhand when I had no other shot. Correspondingly, used full BH grip to slice dig up and “ slice lob” on a Forehand. This extreme, last minute grip change also comes into play at net when contacting low bouncing balls or volleys and trying to angle crosscourt. An argument could be made for juniors to learn how to manipulate a variety of grips on occasion for groundstrokes and volleys if used at the right time. Those last minute grip changes are often completed at the last second on a stretch, which requires one hand shifting with soft hands (one of the few positive transfers I gained from badminton tournaments ). If anyone has zoomed in footage of last minute grip changes, please post. I’m sure JY knows where some grip change footage might be located in the archives. For those of you who saw McEnroe up close, wasn’t he a master of grip changes???

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7DGQVido4XM