New Teaching Method: Slice Backhand Ball Flights

[johnyandell]

Would love to get your thoughts on my article "New Teaching Method: Slice Backhand Ball Flights"

[doctorhl]

Great article John! You captured the low bounce on the extreme slice, something I could never figure out how to capture on film. Now, if I can just figure out how to use that high extreme slice backswing motion ( for deception purposes) and hit the “ full swing” type of drop shot. Perhaps, you can get those same 3 players to hit a drop shot with their same slice motion backswing and capture the distance of their second bounce.

[johnyandell]

It could happen...

[jthb1021]

I have really enjoyed this series and I really liked the measuring of the height of the different bounces. Wouldn't you agree to master the slice you adapt how steep the swing is based on the incoming ball? What does Giancarlo's swing path look like when he is receiving a low slice? Does it start to resemble Scott where it is a little bit in between?

[jthb1021]

Before writing this I would have bet my slice looked like Scott's, but the camera says I play it like Giancarlo with the tip of the racquet pointing down at the court. I was taught tennis in the early 90's and I don't think this is the slice I learned, but I believe it evolved from having a one handed backhand in the poly string era of college tennis and 5.0+ tennis since. Players have started their attacks hitting heavy topspin into my backhand at every opportunity for as long as I can remember. Now I play indoors on a really fast hard court and I use my slice a lot to set up lots of my favorite patters and after looking at video I seem to do this on higher balls and lower balls alike. I believe players should learn and master the classic slice and the need for the modern slice will occur naturally.

[don_budge]

Before writing this I would have bet my slice looked like Scott's, but the camera says I play it like Giancarlo with the tip of the racquet pointing down at the court. I was taught tennis in the early 90's and I don't think this is the slice I learned, but I believe it evolved from having a one handed backhand in the poly string era of college tennis and 5.0+ tennis since. Players have started their attacks hitting heavy topspin into my backhand at every opportunity for as long as I can remember. Now I play indoors on a really fast hard court and I use my slice a lot to set up lots of my favorite patters and after looking at video I seem to do this on higher balls and lower balls alike. I believe players should learn and master the classic slice and the need for the modern slice will occur naturally.

What kind of grip do you use for your slice? Is it different that your regular backhand grip?

[jthb1021]

Continental on the slice and a strong eastern for my topspin one hander.

[johnyandell]

JT,
Great comments and understanding of the article. And personal evidence on how the slice evolves! Yes I think the focus on the downward swing is the key to hitting the more extreme versions.

On the lower balls I think the backswing is basically the same or possibly only slightly shorter:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/RF_BH_Slice&stroke=RF%20BHSlice%20Short%20Side2%20500fps%20.mp4&new=

[don_budge]

Continental on the slice and a strong eastern for my topspin one hander.

Thanks jthb1021...I appreciate that. But now I am really curious. How about a video of your "slice" backhand and a video of your drive as well. Where and when did you play your college tennis?

[stroke]

I think one can tell if he is hitting the classic slice or modern slice by maybe just watching what the ball does particularly after in bounces in the opponents court. The modern slice produces an east to west spin(vs the north to south spin of the classic). Obviously after the bounce, the modern slice makes kind of a right hand turn(from opponents perspective) rather than just straight forward as the classic does.

[doctorhl]

Clip of my angle of attack for extreme slice. Ball bounce will skid low. East to west spin increases when ball is contacted lower and racket tip is pointed downward. However, it is difficult for me to time the steep swing and get the “ bite” on the strings and subsequent skid bounce I want, because at my club level of play, I am not faced with counter reversing heavy amounts of topspin from opponents. Classic slice, therefore, is used more often.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XDqAMEkbwMw&feature=youtu.be

[doctorhl]

I noticed that pro level players don’t have to open their shoulders after contact to generate pace on the extreme slice because they are facing such extreme rates of spin. I think the lack of facing pro level high spin rates is partially the reason( besides lack of talent) why I can never once seem to duplicate Federer’s extreme downward “ cut drop” that bounces almost backward, then sidewards. Perhaps hitting against a ball machine tossing out extremely high spin rates would answer the question. I have been able to experience the “cut drop” action when faced with high spin rates in table tennis. Anyone else been down this road?

[stroke]

One more thing to me on the modern slice. I think it is a much stronger motion to execute. Think about if you were to have a hatchet in your hand and struck a piece of wood in front of you as would strike the ball in a classic slice backhand. Not a particularly strong motion. Now think about that hatchet striking the wood as you would strike the ball in an extreme slice. You would be hitting down with the hatchet blade into the wood, a very strong motion.

[jthb1021]

Thanks jthb1021...I appreciate that. But now I am really curious. How about a video of your "slice" backhand and a video of your drive as well. Where and when did you play your college tennis?

Don Budge Please share your email address or something where I can share two fifteen second videos of my backhand slice and topspin if needed. I can send you videos of some points I have played in the last few months if you'd like to make sure I have a solid service motion and check my forehand out as well. Please make sure I have the proper atp backswing that doesn't break the plane! I can also send you points with me returning using a backhand chip return against a big server in singles or a bh drive return down the line against an aussie or pro formation in doubles. I can also share multiple videos of second serve returns with me moving around kickers meant for my backhand and playing an agressive forehand return looking to force an error to what Craig O'Shannessy refers to as "C." Please also check out my shot selection and decision making both in the singles and doubles with the timing of my movement and poaching in the videos I send, Please understand I use this site to stay current on what is going on in tennis because as a 39 year old married with two kids and full time director of tennis I don't have time to sift through the garbage to find good stuff on Youtube, so I love the solid and concise content on this site. I personally believe my post yesterday and the picture of the discussed subject of the slice I sent you along with a well written post in my opinion should have established the credibility required for this message board. But if not I played #1 singles and doubles at Belhaven College now Belhaven University which is an NAIA school in Jackson, MS. I think what is interesting about me is I continued to grow and improve after college and my best tennis has been post college and especially in the last 4 or 5 years. In USTA league play I have been to nationals 3 times and once a national champion, I have won several National level singles tournaments in the men's 30's and 35's over the last 10 years. But what I really love is that I do what I love and I love what I do, which is teaching tennis! I have no claim to be anything special teaching wise, but I feel I do a good job with the certain checkpoints on all strokes which John Yandell refers to in many of his videos while also allowing a certain range of acceptability of other parts of peoples strokes as well. On the tactical side I love Craig O'Shannessy's material and data which I incorporate it in both my play but mainly in my teaching. I have been blessed to enjoy a good life in tennis probably better than I deserve and have met some amazing people along the way. Please don't take this as an ego post because that couldn't be farther from the truth, my background isn't anywhere near as impressive as many on this site, but I would like to feel comfortable posting if I choose to. Be blessed and Happy Mardi Gras from Louisiana

[don_budge]

Please don't take this as an ego post because that couldn't be farther from the truth, my background isn't anywhere near as impressive as many on this site, but I would like to feel comfortable posting if I choose to. Be blessed and Happy Mardi Gras from Louisiana

"One of the guys I always tried to emulate was Frankie Parker. He was a good friend of my dad's and when he came to visit he used to give me lessons. He had this incredible swagger ... cool and sure of himself but still humble. I love the picture of him with Jack Kramer, Pancho Gonzalez and Pancho Segura (a coach to me in my teens) LEGENDS!"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1151657154906693/permalink/5209824359089932/?comment_id=5214077475331287&reply_comment_id=5214158521989849&notif_id=1613503918813483&notif_t=group_comment&ref=notif

Well said jthb1021. I like the tone of it all. I've been fooling around on this website a bit. A story in itself. Lots of big tennis names. This quote from a poster I thought was interesting...about Frank Parker who "had this incredible swagger...cool and sure of himself but still humble". That reminded me of my tennis coach. He's 92 the other day. I spoke to him. An amazing man. He's out hitting against the wall in sub-freezing temps.

Before writing this I would have bet my slice looked like Scott's, but the camera says I play it like Giancarlo with the tip of the racquet pointing down at the court. I was taught tennis in the early 90's and I don't think this is the slice I learned, but I believe it evolved from having a one handed backhand in the poly string era of college tennis and 5.0+ tennis since. Players have started their attacks hitting heavy topspin into my backhand at every opportunity for as long as I can remember. Now I play indoors on a really fast hard court and I use my slice a lot to set up lots of my favorite patters and after looking at video I seem to do this on higher balls and lower balls alike. I believe players should learn and master the classic slice and the need for the modern slice will occur naturally.

This was an interesting post too. Your comments made me curious about your grips. My email is hsnavarro@hotmail.com. I couldn't for the life of me think of any good reason not to share it out in the open. Tennis players evolve, I think, instead of being manufactured. The great thing about this game is it is an evolutionary process. The experiences along the way and the people we meet sometimes lead to epiphanies...large and small. Looking forwards to receiving the referenced video. The picture you sent me was interesting in that it left a lot to the imagination. This discussion about slice backhands is rather fascinating as I contend that the slice backhand is like having a complete set of golf clubs in the shot. The variations are nearly infinite. The grip, the angle of the racquet face, the trajectory of the racquet face through the path of the ball.

I believe that you have a story to tell. Thanks and looking forwards to the videos.