The Serve: Back Leg Involvement

[postpre]

I need some help understanding why a pinpoint stance (or narrow platform) is not preferred if back leg involvement is key. Apart from Federer, how many platform servers are actually getting a strong push from the back leg with their upward leg drive? Sampras didn't, and many claim he had the GOAT serve. Pinpoint and narrow platform servers push off much more forcefully with the back leg due to the proximity of their feet.

If you are a platform server, and the back leg is supposed to be loaded with 60% of your weight (Macci) in the load phase, is it understood that that when you begin to launch upward some of that weight will naturally transition to the front leg, so that you will be driving up with more force from the front leg (due to the sheer fact that the legs are further apart in the platform stance)? If the push off from the back leg is key to the beginning of the upward leg drive, I can't help but think pinpoint or narrow platform is the way to go. Unless I'm missing something.

Working with my 15 (almost 16) year old son, he's tall (6 ft 3'-4') and I'm trying to figure this out. He could have a major weapon, and I realize the taller guys gravitate toward pinpoint. Currently he's platform. Whenever I stress back leg involvement and push, he "archers bow" a bit more than I would prefer. When he loads he can get on both toes and weight the back leg, but the actual upward push from the back leg doesn't come as natural. Kind of like Sampras. I'm thinking about narrowing his stance or trying pinpoint.

[johnyandell]

Have you got some video?

[postpre]

Have you got some video?

I can get something to look at soon.

[johnyandell]

Great. iphone 240 frames (slo mo) if possible

[postpre]

Great. iphone 240 frames (slo mo) if possible

Here is a video as a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8P...ature=youtu.be

[johnyandell]

I would try narrowing his stance on the Fed model--bring the back foot to the right.

[arturohernandez]

I would try narrowing his stance on the Fed model--bring the back foot to the right.

I think I see the problem with the stance. I agree with John. The back foot seems too far behind him and too close to the baseline. I think getting the foot to move a tad away from the baseline but slightly closer to him would help.

He seems to be rotating a lot rather than jumping into the court.

I would try having him literally stand on his back foot, toss the ball, hit it and then land on his front foot. He could even really exaggerate it and try hitting the serve off of the back foot entirely. Off of one foot he definitely has to hit up to the ball and forward or else it won't clear the net. He doesn't have to hit it hard. Just try to get it over the net. This should give him the feel for pushing off with the back foot. You could also buy a step like the ones they use in aerobics classes. Then I would have him hop onto the step repeatedly while landing on his front foot. This will give him the feeling of trying to jump into the court. My daughter and i both found serving while landing on the step very difficult. So I would advise doing shadow serves where he hops and lands on his front foot on top of the step while shadow serving. Then immediately move over and have him hit his regular serve. He can then transfer this feeling of hopping onto the step into his serve.

I would really avoid the pinpoint as his platform serve is good and he is making contact. I think with a little tweak of the stance and then some exercises he will get the feel for jumping into the court rather than rotating around his own axis.

The advanced serve is one of the most difficult shots in all of sports. Like a beautiful rose garden it requires water, soil, sun and constant care.

Even McEnroe needed a gardener to come in and help him keep it pristine.

[doctorhl]

Here is a video as a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8P...ature=youtu.be

Just curious. Can he leap higher with a pinpoint versus platform? Hard to duplicate the same exact swing and then decide where to take a measurement- ground to foot height, ground to waist height, ground to racket tip height. Brian Gordon could figure it out but not sure any significant difference in contact height( if found) is relevant.

[postpre]

Guys,

Great suggestions!

John: I think was able to bring his back foot further to the right.

arturohernandez: Very astute about his back leg being to close to the baseline. I addressed that with him. Love the exercises too. Reminded me a bit of Mark Kovacs' drills.

doctorhl: I am not sure on that. My hunch is maybe a bit higher with the pinpoint. Should he take advantage of his height and try to increase contact height?

Below is a new video from last night. I also worked on angling his left foot toward right net post (especially on deuce side), and making sure his back leg was not angled past parallel (Sampras did that but I don't think he's the best model!). Let me know what you guys think after trying to implement some of these changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzE...ature=youtu.be

[arturohernandez]

Guys,

Great suggestions!

John: I think was able to bring his back foot further to the right.

arturohernandez: Very astute about his back leg being to close to the baseline. I addressed that with him. Love the exercises too. Reminded me a bit of Mark Kovacs' drills.

doctorhl: I am not sure on that. My hunch is maybe a bit higher with the pinpoint. Should he take advantage of his height and try to increase contact height?

Below is a new video from last night. I also worked on angling his left foot toward right net post (especially on deuce side), and making sure his back leg was not angled past parallel (Sampras did that but I don't think he's the best model!). Let me know what you guys think after trying to implement some of these changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzE...ature=youtu.be

The serves look better! But there are still times when he rotates too much and doesn't get his weight into the court. His serve will have nice spin and even speed. But I think if he can hop a bit more into the court it will be even better.

In this serve, he kind of rotated a lot.

https://youtu.be/CXzEa3gj-nE?t=53

Another idea. Look at Fed warming up. He take a little step with his front foot. Than might also help him to feel the back foot.

I would really have him do a lot of alternating between his regular serve and exercises. It will take time for him to feel the new serve naturally. The body will always want to fall into old habits. So you need to find a way to cue the part of the motion you want to change. Otherwise, it will revert back to what it was. Thinking about how to change is very hard. Better to give the body a little nudge in some way and let it do its thing.

He has great contact and a good drop. Thinking too much will mess that up.

Here are two videos of Fed warming up. You will see that he actually takes a little step forward with his front foot. I think the little step helps him to get his weight moving forward. It's like a little reminder of what should be done when he hits his regular serve. Kind of like an abbreviated version of the one foot serve. From the side angle you can see that he rotates but appears to be sideways a bit more sideways at contact.

https://youtu.be/W6dNCMhhhDU

https://youtu.be/QI5adGG6RA8

Can you send us some video from the side so we can see the contact and rotation from that angle?

[johnyandell]

Looks better!

[doctorhl]

Looks great. My only thought is to look at a "face on" view along the baseline and see how far his hips are leaning inward toward the net when in his deepest knee bend in comparison to others from that same view. The more inward lean, the more weight on the front foot. However, he may well be within the range of biomechanical correctness for hip lean and the lean becomes irrelevant and not worth mentioning to him. Here a guy I filmed years ago that pushes the limits of body rotation and hip lean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMgGLYQzVWs&list=UUiuooZL06QYfqCOLUKujQCg

[postpre]

Looks great. My only thought is to look at a "face on" view along the baseline and see how far his hips are leaning inward toward the net when in his deepest knee bend in comparison to others from that same view. The more inward lean, the more weight on the front foot. However, he may well be within the range of biomechanical correctness for hip lean and the lean becomes irrelevant and not worth mentioning to him. Here a guy I filmed years ago that pushes the limits of body rotation and hip lean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMgG...QYfqCOLUKujQCg

The video you linked to is currently only private (not for public consumption :-). Would love to see it if you can make it available.

arturohernandez: I will get some videos of my son from the side. Fed is very interesting with that front foot. I see him also moving it a tad bit on his match serves as well. Like you, I think it's a cue for him, and if memory serves, Roddick may have also done something similar.

John: Would you agree that Sampras (with his archer's bow) is not a model to try to follow? Salzenstein and others lift up Sampras as the holy grail of serve technique, but I personally feel too much can go wrong if you try to emulate his idiosyncrasies.

[doctorhl]

Posture: Here is the link and it should now be public: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dMgGLYQzVWs

[johnyandell]

PostPre,

It's the toss and the amount of body rotation that make it tough to copy. See my article on Thiem's second serve this month. Pete's might be the greatest serve ever but Fed in my opinion is a better model. When I worked with Jeff many years ago we used Sampras as a model--mainly his stance--and it worked for Jeff...