Federer and Budge - movement on BH

[marius hancu]

The small steps Federer makes here to enter in the appropriate angle for the BH are inherited from Donald Budge.

[lukman41985]

What is meant by inherited? That's a strong word choice.

[marius hancu]

What is meant by inherited? That's a strong word choice.

one of the senses:
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To receive or take over from a predecessor: The new administration inherited the economic problems of the last four years.
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[lukman41985]

Marius, I know what inherited means. I asked what you meant by inherited because I disagree with your assessment that Federer inherited anything from Budge. If you were to ask Federer about players who influenced his game, I'm confident that he would NOT say Budge.

In that clip, you may be reminded of something Budge did, but this in no way means Federer inherited what you saw from Budge. Federer is doing what he has to do to get in position to hit the shot he wants. Commonalities exist in the pro game, but to me this one is far-fetched.

Budge did have a pretty one-hander nonetheless.

[marius hancu]

Marius, I know what inherited means. I asked what you meant by inherited because I disagree with your assessment that Federer inherited anything from Budge. If you were to ask Federer about players who influenced his game, I'm confident that he would NOT say Budge.

In that clip, you may be reminded of something Budge did, but this in no way means Federer inherited what you saw from Budge. Federer is doing what he has to do to get in position to hit the shot he wants. Commonalities exist in the pro game, but to me this one is far-fetched.

Budge did have a pretty one-hander nonetheless.

Whether Federer would say he inherited this from Budge or not is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion.

One can inherit things without being aware of it (the inheritance) /them (the things inherited).

And of course I used the term in a figurative way, as inheritance from one great player to another. Perhaps even a spiritual inheritance.

And, finally, I have nothing against leaving this at a disagreement.

[stotty]

Old posts

Some old threads certainly provoke thoughts. There have certainly been some great posters in the past on the forum, people before out time, who have now disappeared. I have a mind to dig up some of these old posts.

Here is one I found. "Inherited" was a choice word. Can players inherit from those more than a few generations apart? I would say yes...maybe indirectly, but yes.

Isaac Newton said he built his theories by standing on the "shoulder of giants"; giants like Descartes and those before him.

[don_budge]

Inheritance…genetic vs. stream of consciousness

Some old threads certainly provoke thoughts. There have certainly been some great posters in the past on the forum, people before out time, who have now disappeared. I have a mind to dig up some of these old posts.

Here is one I found. "Inherited" was a choice word. Can players inherit from those more than a few generations apart? I would say yes...maybe indirectly, but yes.

Isaac Newton said he built his theories by standing on the "shoulder of giants"; giants like Descartes and those before him.

The book is William Tilden. The model is Richard Gonzales with the Don Budge backhand. The coach is Harry Hopman. Roger Federer is the living proof.

As you know from incessant repetition…this is my self proclaimed paradigm for coaching tennis. What it means is that the fundamental foundations for a true tennis player were cast by the genius tennis mind of Bill Tilden many, many years ago. Those fundamentals were picked up…either consciously or subconsciously by the players and coaches that followed.

My dear old tennis coach Sherman Collins handed much of this down to me and of course I have done my best to expand upon it. Not so much that I have any new knowledge or information but perhaps in the way that I express it or use it to creatively find solutions to problems. It gives my teaching my own individual footprint much as it gives players there own individual flair or style. But you can trace those footprints right on back to the source. The source is Tilden.

It's not there wouldn't have been a Roger Federer without a Richard Gonzales…it is only that this is how the thing evolved. The inheritance is not always genetic…it is a stream of consciousness. It's not that there has to be any conscious attempt to imitate or emulate…it is only that there is nothing new under the sun. All attempts will eventually be traced back to the source.

If you are a tennis teacher however it is advisable that you put your student on course with a sound foundation of fundamentals so that those inheritances that are in the netherlands of higher stratospheres are attainable. Attainable through hard work and perseverance that lead to self discoveries…as we reinvent the wheel over and over.

Nice pick Stotty. A thoughtful piece of conversation…don't you think so?

[don_budge]

Incidentally…The Paradigm

It is one of the beautiful ironies in life when you can find something that validates what you believe in. This fellow makes the argument without even knowing don_budge that somehow that by connecting the three little dots you begin with the model of a Richard Gonzales with a Don Budge backhand you arrive at the current Roger Federer.

Throw in some Bill Tilden under the watchful eye of Harry Hopman and there you have it…the recipe for a champion.

[don_budge]

The Inheritance…From Don Budge to Roger Federer

The Inheritance…From Don Budge to Roger Federer

Here we have an excellent illustration of "The Inheritance" that my teaching paradigm reflects. There are aspects of Welby Van Horn and who knows who else…maybe even John Yandell himself.

here are six fundamental steps to hitting a drive backhand…with basic points of interest for the student

The small steps Federer makes here to enter in the appropriate angle for the BH are inherited from Donald Budge.

Step 1-
click #11...ready position. after the split step and recognition that the ball is either a forehand or a backhand.

Step 2-
click #17...set the racquet. sets the grip and the racquet and arm structure to be kept intact throughout the swing. racquet face looking for the ball...eyes looking for the ball.

Step 3-
click #23...turn the shoulders. the position of the racquet and body (at least) when the ball bounces.

Step 4-
click #32...get in position. completion of the backswing and the beginning of the forwards swing. feet, racquet and body creating lines.

Step 5-
click #36...ball contact position. weight committed to the front foot. head forwards and ass back.

Step 6-
click #41...follow through position. racquet head extending through the ball with the rest of the bodies energy dissipating like the stages of a rocket.

connect the dots…apply them accordingly. have the student verbally say "bounce" when the ball bounces and emphasize and over emphasize to them that they must have at least attained step 3 in their sequence of swing movements. have them say "5" when their racquet meets the ball. in swedish we say "stuts, fem". to make it a bit more challenging have them say "split" when the opponent's racquet meets the ball. the repetitive verbal identification with the ball's position in flight helps them to track the path of the ball…helps them to watch the ball…the 6 steps of the swing helps them to be aware of their own bodies' position with relationship to the path of the ball. connecting the verbal and the visual to the concept.

just a little "food for thought".

[don_budge]

Standing on the Shoulders of Giants...

Some old threads certainly provoke thoughts.

Isaac Newton said he built his theories by standing on the "shoulder of giants"; giants like Descartes and those before him.

They certainly do provoke thoughts…thanks for posting this. That's funny…I heard don_budge muttering the very same thing under his breath one day. "Standing on the shoulders of giants…". Something to that effect.

[stotty]

It's not there wouldn't have been a Roger Federer without a Richard Gonzales…it is only that this is how the thing evolved. The inheritance is not always genetic…it is a stream of consciousness. It's not that there has to be any conscious attempt to imitate or emulate…it is only that there is nothing new under the sun. All attempts will eventually be traced back to the source.

The writer Colin Wilson (writer of The Outsider...superb book) wrote of a scientific experiment using rats...a true story.

Hundreds of hungry rats were housed together on a large cage. One rat was removed and placed in a maze. At the exit of the maze, food was placed to entice the rat along. The rat took a few minutes to find the exit and the food. The maze was then cleaned out and another rat placed in and the experiment was run again. This rat found the food a little quicker. The experiment was repeated again and again with each rat cutting down the time to get to the food than the previous rat. By the time the 50th rat had his go, the rats were galloping straight to the food and rarely taking a wrong turn to get there.

The thinking was that the rats were somehow subconsciously passing down information to each other...and that all species do this do an extent...Darwinian like.

If someone has gone before...it helps.