Have Tennis Coaches Failed Female Athletes?

[hockeyscout]

You literally dismiss everyone but Federer. You're not impressed with anyone else, male female. The pace of a serve doesn't matter. Serena isn't strong and athletic with a good serve, she's a bully. You don't like anyone's service motion but Federer and Martina.
Ok, now I understand what I'm dealing with. Moving on.

Federer and Martina are a cut above - I agree. It is a 1 or 2 percent difference, which is such a big obstacle. Don Budge has seen a lot of great athletes ... Gordie Howe, NBA, NFL and his dad was a hell of a ball player in the day. Federer/Martina are the only ones on the same level as Pele, Gretzky, Ruth, Jordan, etc etc. Yes, his standards are high but when you grow up watching Gordie Howe every day, you see room for improvement in every athlete in every sport. Federer has pretty much perfected the sport - and, Martina is the greatest female athlete to ever walk on planet earth bar none. Will the rest make the necessary corrections - the interesting thing about Roger is how he has adapted every year and got better. It's quite interesting to look at his serve from 17 to 37. It's even more interesting to see he never had an ATP 3 as a young man as he was taught the fundamentals of a different stroke that was 70's paradigm based, and changed everything at 16/17/18 when people say it is too late to teach an old dog new tricks. His adaptability and ability to vary his approach - unbelievable. I thought about 8/9 years ago his terrible ankles would do him in - and, what do you know his gait completely changes over-night. The sport has been spoiled by that guy - and he's won playing against a few "souped up sports cars" and guys that are into some pretty intensive "vitamin" programs. Pretty sure Roger is about as clean as a baby's diaper.

[Error]

My eyes? Need glasses? I don't need glasses to discern a good service motion. Interestingly enough I have started to play remarkably good golf after a many year layoff. At my age. My chronological age. Sixty-six. Handicap down to 1.6 after a ten year layoff. Quite remarkable considering from where I started my comeback. It wasn't pretty and I was the very first one to admit it. When I'm wrong...I am really wrong. Not to say that you are wrong...or right for that matter. But the truly fascinating thing about that 1.6 handicap dive is the amount of work and effort that I put into it. I'm not saying I am extremely talented or even good-looking for that matter. But I work hard and do my best. Always. I promise that.

In December of 2004, just before moving across the globe at the age of fifty I had lasic surgery done on my eyes. It was somewhat of a miracle. One day I needed bifocals and the next I could read the finest print in the Bible without glasses. My vision was restored. Honestly I felt it was a miracle. Poor vision was the only thing that I found difficult to accept in the ageing process. Two weeks later I moved to Sweden with a "new" pair of eyeballs. It somewhat restored my confidence...not that I was discernably lacking.

One of the things I noticed when I resumed my golfing career was that my vision has deteriorated from that point in 2004 when I had the surgery. Not that I was hitting the ball very far...but I couldn't see down the fairway, in the rough or even on the green. I was thinking that perhaps I needed glasses to play golf. So the remarkable thing is and this also has a tennis underlying condition...I switched to the yellow ball. Now that thing glows down the fairway and perhaps the most compelling thing is how quickly my handicap has plummeted since I switched. I think that I was around 5 or 6 when I switched less than a month ago and as I mentioned now it is 1.6. That's 1.6 Error...that is an amazing drop. Golfers would marvel at that drop. It is almost unheard of. My lowest handicap when I was playing many years ago was around 2.6. I didn't need glasses. I needed better optics. I think that the yellow ball in golf is just a matter of time. I remember when the yellow ball became the norm in tennis. When I began to play for the first time it was all white. White balls...white clothes. Tennis was a class act.

But with regards to "ladies" serving. What is the acid test of a serve? Well for one thing I would say the ability to propel yourself through tough situations in match play and eventually winning titles. The better the serve...the better the titles. Roger Federer, who is what I call "The Living Proof" in my tennis coaching paradigm is the best example of a great serve in men's tennis best exemplified by his ability to win big matches and big titles because of his ability to serve so effectively. No other player comes to mind that has that same ability. So I am not so impressed with the serve and serving games of the men either. I am not a member of the "miles per hour" club. Now that is a fantasy club. MPH is not to be confused with great serving motions. A lot of amateur afficianados are routinely fooled by such nonsense. I believe you used that word in a response to another well respected member of this forum.

The only "lady" that could possible fill this definiton of great serving that you mention would be Serena Williams but she doesn't pass the smell test either. Her motion is home baked and it is anything but a beautiful and classic motion. She in fact has been known to have difficulty in some situations but she bails herself out with brute strength and is able to bully her way throught the fields of women draws. She bullies with her serve too. But not because she has a great motion. I have been watching the game of tennis for many years and coached for a number of years as well. I have been in the U. S. Open lockerroom courtesy of a coaching pass that I had while working with a player who was ranked #6 in the world at one point. You can call that an accident if you like...knowing what you know. Which seems to be just about everything.

So I don't think I need glasses to discern a great service motion. Through the years I think the best service motion of the women that I ever saw was that of Martina Navritilova. It might just be a matter of standards between you and I. Obviously yours are much lower. You don't set the bar that high. I am a perfectionist. I am the same way with myself. Even at a 1.6 handicap I still insist there is plenty of room for improvement. Which is tantamount to potential. I just work harder. I have learned a couple of things in life. Trying to bluff your way through these matters with personal insults is useless. Nobody of any intelligence will buy into it. Women's serves...rather mediocre. It is the nature of things. You don't see many women throwing 75 yard spirals with a football either.

You literally dismiss everyone but Federer. You're not impressed with anyone else, male female. The pace of a serve doesn't matter. Serena isn't strong and athletic with a good serve, she's a bully. You don't like anyone's service motion but Federer and Martina.
Ok, now I understand what I'm dealing with. Moving on.

[don_budge]

My eyes? Need glasses? I don't need glasses to discern a good service motion. Interestingly enough I have started to play remarkably good golf after a many year layoff. At my age. My chronological age. Sixty-six. Handicap down to 1.6 after a ten year layoff. Quite remarkable considering from where I started my comeback. It wasn't pretty and I was the very first one to admit it. When I'm wrong...I am really wrong. Not to say that you are wrong...or right for that matter. But the truly fascinating thing about that 1.6 handicap dive is the amount of work and effort that I put into it. I'm not saying I am extremely talented or even good-looking for that matter. But I work hard and do my best. Always. I promise that.

In December of 2004, just before moving across the globe at the age of fifty I had lasic surgery done on my eyes. It was somewhat of a miracle. One day I needed bifocals and the next I could read the finest print in the Bible without glasses. My vision was restored. Honestly I felt it was a miracle. Poor vision was the only thing that I found difficult to accept in the ageing process. Two weeks later I moved to Sweden with a "new" pair of eyeballs. It somewhat restored my confidence...not that I was discernably lacking.

One of the things I noticed when I resumed my golfing career was that my vision has deteriorated from that point in 2004 when I had the surgery. Not that I was hitting the ball very far...but I couldn't see down the fairway, in the rough or even on the green. I was thinking that perhaps I needed glasses to play golf. So the remarkable thing is and this also has a tennis underlying condition...I switched to the yellow ball. Now that thing glows down the fairway and perhaps the most compelling thing is how quickly my handicap has plummeted since I switched. I think that I was around 5 or 6 when I switched less than a month ago and as I mentioned now it is 1.6. That's 1.6 Error...that is an amazing drop. Golfers would marvel at that drop. It is almost unheard of. My lowest handicap when I was playing many years ago was around 2.6. I didn't need glasses. I needed better optics. I think that the yellow ball in golf is just a matter of time. I remember when the yellow ball became the norm in tennis. When I began to play for the first time it was all white. White balls...white clothes. Tennis was a class act.

But with regards to "ladies" serving. What is the acid test of a serve? Well for one thing I would say the ability to propel yourself through tough situations in match play and eventually winning titles. The better the serve...the better the titles. Roger Federer, who is what I call "The Living Proof" in my tennis coaching paradigm is the best example of a great serve in men's tennis best exemplified by his ability to win big matches and big titles because of his ability to serve so effectively. No other player comes to mind that has that same ability. So I am not so impressed with the serve and serving games of the men either. I am not a member of the "miles per hour" club. Now that is a fantasy club. MPH is not to be confused with great serving motions. A lot of amateur afficianados are routinely fooled by such nonsense. I believe you used that word in a response to another well respected member of this forum.

The only "lady" that could possible fill this definiton of great serving that you mention would be Serena Williams but she doesn't pass the smell test either. Her motion is home baked and it is anything but a beautiful and classic motion. She in fact has been known to have difficulty in some situations but she bails herself out with brute strength and is able to bully her way throught the fields of women draws. She bullies with her serve too. But not because she has a great motion. I have been watching the game of tennis for many years and coached for a number of years as well. I have been in the U. S. Open lockerroom courtesy of a coaching pass that I had while working with a player who was ranked #6 in the world at one point. You can call that an accident if you like...knowing what you know. Which seems to be just about everything.

So I don't think I need glasses to discern a great service motion. Through the years I think the best service motion of the women that I ever saw was that of Martina Navritilova. It might just be a matter of standards between you and I. Obviously yours are much lower. You don't set the bar that high. I am a perfectionist. I am the same way with myself. Even at a 1.6 handicap I still insist there is plenty of room for improvement. Which is tantamount to potential. I just work harder. I have learned a couple of things in life. Trying to bluff your way through these matters with personal insults is useless. Nobody of any intelligence will buy into it. Women's serves...rather mediocre. It is the nature of things. You don't see many women throwing 75 yard spirals with a football either.

[Error]

There isn't a single woman's serve that stands up to my eyeball. Not one. Zero.

Barty Serena, Lisicki, Stosur, Kvitova, Keys and on and on... Perhaps you just need glasses.

[klacr]

Yeah...you can take all of those certifications and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. Absolutely worthless. My successor who became a local hero to the club where I worked knew nothing about becoming a competitive tennis player. I am not certain how many times I played him and more than likely it was bagel after bagel. Me...washed up and old by the time we met. He is now selling knock off Chinese racquets to the membership for profit. He is what I would call a tennis low-life. But guess what? Fully accredited. The highest of accreditation the imbecilic Swedish Tennis Federation has to offer. It's Socialist tennis at its best. Shoot for the middle and be happy. Everyone gets a prize.

But this jerk is not alone. They have turned out these tennis "professionals" as if there was a production line. Anybody qualifies. Just attend the accreditation class...get your cert and call yourself a teacher.

Spot on finding a stud from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Long, long ago on this forum I wrote of how the tennis coaching was hijacked. I double down now. All you have to do is watch the pros. Watch them. There is only one player playing tennis...Roger Federer. Stefanos Tsitsipas is getting closer and closer. But only Federer has the goods. The rest of the cookies from the cookie cutter machine make him look all the better. The eyes don't lie.

There isn't a single woman's serve that stands up to my eyeball. Not one. Zero. The serve is only a means to put the ball in play or to try to knock your opponents socks off. There is nothing thoughtful or meaningful about one single woman's serve. So if I had a woman tennis player coming up the pipe this would be one of the components of the game I would surely exploit because like Daniel Evans backhand it would be an anomaly and therefore that much harder to deal with. Don't talk to me about mph as being criteria for a great serve. It is only one of three important factors.

It's a dumbed down sport and the coaching profession has had there hands in it all along. Nick Bolletierri being the champion of the pretenders. The Academy. Stick that where the sun don't shine too. Situation coaching hijacked. Ever since 1984 by the way.

Certification does not mean education. Therein lies the problem.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Delray Beach
SETS Consulting

[don_budge]

I remember you got screwed over there? What happened?

Nope...never got screwed. To get screwed is to let your guard down. It all went down on my terms. They were having a good time...all jolly and everything. Trust me this guy knew nothing about tennis. Not a single thing. He did pass all of the accreditatoins in the Swedish Retarded School of Tennis. It's limited stuff really. He said it was the toughest thing he ever did. No it wasn't a screwing so much as a personality conflict.

One day the director of the club, who acted like this fools adopted father, said the wrong thing to me. Maybe it wasn't so terrible. But me being the way I am...I thought about it and said to myself nobody talks to me like that. Never missed a day. Not a single class. Never late. Like Moe Norman. This is my playground. So what did he say? Hmmm...can I remember? Something to the effect that I wasn't participating in the discussion. I don't listen maybe. Something to that effect. Well...that was enough. They weren't listening. Meanwhile numbnuts is selling Chinese made knockoffs at the club for the "big" profit margin.

I took a walk that night. I walked out that door. I vowed to myself that I was never going back. I did this without knowing what the future held in terms of finance, security...none of it. Fortunately there is a God and my resignation turned out to be exactly that. An act of God. You know kids...the only revenge in life is success. A dear old friend of mine told me that in the middle of the night when I was working the midnight shift at Ford Steel Division. The only revenge in life is success. I never forgot it. Larry was a Vietnam vet. He knew a thing or two. You cannot sink to the level of your nemesis. You have to rise above. Otherwise it just gets lower and lower.

Thanks for asking hockeyscout. It's funny how things go isn't it? You and I all chummy now after a bit of a dicey beginning. Best to you and the kid. I'm rooting for you guys!

[hockeyscout]

Yeah...you can take all of those certifications and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. Absolutely worthless. My successor who became a local hero to the club where I worked knew nothing about becoming a competitive tennis player. I am not certain how many times I played him and more than likely it was bagel after bagel. Me...washed up and old by the time we met. He is now selling knock off Chinese racquets to the membership for profit. He is what I would call a tennis low-life. But guess what? Fully accredited. The highest of accreditation the imbecilic Swedish Tennis Federation has to offer. It's Socialist tennis at its best. Shoot for the middle and be happy. Everyone gets a prize.

But this jerk is not alone. They have turned out these tennis "professionals" as if there was a production line. Anybody qualifies. Just attend the accreditation class...get your cert and call yourself a teacher.

Spot on finding a stud from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Long, long ago on this forum I wrote of how the tennis coaching was hijacked. I double down now. All you have to do is watch the pros. Watch them. There is only one player playing tennis...Roger Federer. Stefanos Tsitsipas is getting closer and closer. But only Federer has the goods. The rest of the cookies from the cookie cutter machine make him look all the better. The eyes don't lie.

There isn't a single woman's serve that stands up to my eyeball. Not one. Zero. The serve is only a means to put the ball in play or to try to knock your opponents socks off. There is nothing thoughtful or meaningful about one single woman's serve. So if I had a woman tennis player coming up the pipe this would be one of the components of the game I would surely exploit because like Daniel Evans backhand it would be an anomaly and therefore that much harder to deal with. Don't talk to me about mph as being criteria for a great serve. It is only one of three important factors.

It's a dumbed down sport and the coaching profession has had there hands in it all along. Nick Bolletierri being the champion of the pretenders. The Academy. Stick that where the sun don't shine too. Situation coaching hijacked. Ever since 1984 by the way.

I remember you got screwed over there? What happened?

[don_budge]

Tennis certification does not put these guys in a position to win, and neither do the associations - develop a good player and they will pouch him from you (so where is the motivation). It becomes just another cash payment, and you see guys getting pretty jaded about the whole tennis deal.

Anyways, line up the top 100 guys/girls daddy's on the pro tour, and you'd have the biggest studs born in the 50's/60's/70's - most ex-pro athletes, coaches, businessman, boxers, competitors, hard core immigrants - all ain't shy with the fists/tongue/ambitions. How long you think a bad coach would survive in their jungle - not long. Tennis is a sport of infested by raccoons - and you won't make it unless you are a mean cat, cougars, bobcat or coyotes and can take care of business. The good player always figure out the minefield pretty quick, and know how to look after #1 first. Pretty important to be the biggest stud on the block in this sport.

Yeah...you can take all of those certifications and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. Absolutely worthless. My successor who became a local hero to the club where I worked knew nothing about becoming a competitive tennis player. I am not certain how many times I played him and more than likely it was bagel after bagel. Me...washed up and old by the time we met. He is now selling knock off Chinese racquets to the membership for profit. He is what I would call a tennis low-life. But guess what? Fully accredited. The highest of accreditation the imbecilic Swedish Tennis Federation has to offer. It's Socialist tennis at its best. Shoot for the middle and be happy. Everyone gets a prize.

But this jerk is not alone. They have turned out these tennis "professionals" as if there was a production line. Anybody qualifies. Just attend the accreditation class...get your cert and call yourself a teacher.

Spot on finding a stud from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Long, long ago on this forum I wrote of how the tennis coaching was hijacked. I double down now. All you have to do is watch the pros. Watch them. There is only one player playing tennis...Roger Federer. Stefanos Tsitsipas is getting closer and closer. But only Federer has the goods. The rest of the cookies from the cookie cutter machine make him look all the better. The eyes don't lie.

There isn't a single woman's serve that stands up to my eyeball. Not one. Zero. The serve is only a means to put the ball in play or to try to knock your opponents socks off. There is nothing thoughtful or meaningful about one single woman's serve. So if I had a woman tennis player coming up the pipe this would be one of the components of the game I would surely exploit because like Daniel Evans backhand it would be an anomaly and therefore that much harder to deal with. Don't talk to me about mph as being criteria for a great serve. It is only one of three important factors.

It's a dumbed down sport and the coaching profession has had there hands in it all along. Nick Bolletierri being the champion of the pretenders. The Academy. Stick that where the sun don't shine too. Situation coaching hijacked. Ever since 1984 by the way.

[hockeyscout]

I honestly don't know how to respond to this because I think it's a nonsensical statement.

Besides the fact that each of those players have entirely different motions, they are all men. Women are not men. Men are generally larger, stronger, faster and more coordinated. If you think it's a coaching issue than every coach in womens sports has failed women because none of them are comparable to men in their respective sport. I see plenty/most pro women with very clean and fundamentally sound service motions. Ash Barty Serena, Lisicki, Stosur, Kvitova, Keys and the list goes on. I don't see disjointed motions. I see smooth powerful and effective.

I kind of agree with that one - woman are actually overachieving right now in terms of sports performance. You can't fault them for not having a ribcage like men to leverage on. Those at the top 20 level have done everything they can to get better, trust me. They lack no resources.

[hockeyscout]

Yes, the responsibility does lie with the pro - you are right - clearly you are a very rational person ---- however, you are talking a martian language to the tennis pro who doesn't get the concept of responsibility and is perfectly cool with his bad tennis player clients flouting through life doing the same thing year after year that just does not work. Tennis certification does not put these guys in a position to win, and neither do the associations - develop a good player and they will pouch him from you (so where is the motivation). It becomes just another cash payment, and you see guys getting pretty jaded about the whole tennis deal.

Anyways, line up the top 100 guys/girls daddy's on the pro tour, and you'd have the biggest studs born in the 50's/60's/70's - most ex-pro athletes, coaches, businessman, boxers, competitors, hard core immigrants - all ain't shy with the fists/tongue/ambitions. How long you think a bad coach would survive in their jungle - not long. Tennis is a sport of infested by raccoons - and you won't make it unless you are a mean cat, cougars, bobcat or coyotes and can take care of business. The good player always figure out the minefield pretty quick, and know how to look after #1 first. Pretty important to be the biggest stud on the block in this sport.

[hockeyscout]

I honestly don't know how to respond to this because I think it's a nonsensical statement.

I like it Error ...

[Error]

Really? Explain to me why you don't agree? This will be very interesting and will certainly add to the conversation!

You said it's 110% the students fault for trusting a professional to teach her the fundamentals of tennis. The whole point of becoming a certified pro is to get that legitimacy. How in the world is a new student or her parents going to discern a good coach from a bad one? The responsibility lies with the pro who is taking money to teach tennis. The student doesn't know anything about tennis. That's why she hired a pro.

[Error]

Apologies, I missed this post. Very rarely do you see smooth, silky serves on the WTA like you find on the ATP. Women's serves are often disjointed and have suspect leg drive.

I honestly don't know how to respond to this because I think it's a nonsensical statement.

I cannot think of one woman server with a motion like Roger's, Novak's or Thiem's...to name but a few.

Besides the fact that each of those players have entirely different motions, they are all men. Women are not men. Men are generally larger, stronger, faster and more coordinated. If you think it's a coaching issue than every coach in womens sports has failed women because none of them are comparable to men in their respective sport.

I see plenty/most pro women with very clean and fundamentally sound service motions. Ash Barty Serena, Lisicki, Stosur, Kvitova, Keys and the list goes on. I don't see disjointed motions. I see smooth powerful and effective.

[don_budge]

In general coaches in sports such as tennis and golf are overrated. If you happen to have a great coach consider yourself lucky...if you are a boy or a girl. These types generally seem to have fragile egos and insecure personalities. Maybe they had their asses handed to them one too many times on the court itself. Close behind, generally speaking, is the tennis parent. I'm from the Robert Lansdorp school of thought. Welby Van Horn comes to mind. Don Budge himself. Guys so secure within themselves they don't necessarily need a second opinion. They speak with authority.

You see it here on the forum from time to time. So indignant. Huffy. Recognise yourself? If you have a good coach consider yourself fortunate. But in the end the responsibility is all on the player. There is no way around it. "You can do it" I used to love to tell the kids. Sometimes I ended up saying..."I can't do it for you". I like what arturohernandez is doing with his daughter. Teaching her to listen to her own drummer. I like what hockeyscout is doing with his daughter. Developing the athlete first. Building on the foundation of athleticism. Both these guys have different ideas or even ambitions. But both are instilling some valuable lessons beyond tennis with their kids.

I was fortunate to have a great, great coach. Sherman Collins. His guiding hand was with me on and off the court. His voice is still in my head. His voice became my voice in all things tennis. He was a classic. Impeccable strokes. Impeccable tennis mind. I will never forget his image in his white tennis clothes and dark tan. The clean cut look of a farm kid who grew up wholesome with good old fashioned values. I get a kick out of visiting he and his wife. They have been married 66 years...as long as I have been on this planet. If I had ever made the tour there is only one coach that I would ever consider being my coach. Good old Sherman Collins. But you won't find any like him any more. They broke the mould.

[hockeyscout]

I'm not sure if you're serious with this comment, If you are I'll make a mental note not to engage with you from this point on.

Really? Explain to me why you don't agree? This will be very interesting and will certainly add to the conversation!