Serving Coronas.

[J011yroger]

Hey J011yroger, just a thought, but you could video yourself serving from the service line, aiming at the opposite baseline. The net doesn't really make much difference when practising the serve action. Only noticed this because in these lockdown times I'm whacking serves down my lawn without any net, and it's better than nothing.

Oh, so I could get the entire motion in the camera view? That's a good idea, but I would do it sideways because I tear the court up with my back foot.

J

[J011yroger]

Look at Roger in high speed on the site from rear. Try physically modeling his racket position when his knee bend is full. Do it eyes closed and check yourself. Visualize getting there. If that doesn't work go to the position and serve a few from there.

Day 1:

I tried to figure out exactly what I was doing to get the "forward entry" I worked out that at the beginning of my motion up to the trophy pose my wrist is radially deviated (cocked) similar to my volley position while Fed is neutral or has slight ulnar deviation. I always wondered why Rog bent over at the beginning of the motion, thought it was a style thing, or loosened his back or something. Turns out if your arm is relaxed at your side and your wrist is neutral or deviated to the ulnar side and you want to put the ball on the racquet throat you have to bend over to reach it.

I worked through this indoors for about 30 minutes and definitely felt some new stretch in my pec area near the shoulder just above the armpit like I was waking up some long unused muscles. I told myself that I would need to go very slowly and do a lot of stretching and strengthening to avoid injury which would surely come from being overzealous with a new movement.

I was anxious to try it out, even if slowly, so I went outside and despite the cold and miserable weather tried it out. Upon video review it was basically the same as my old motion. I was cold and frustrated at which point I decided that discretion was the better part of valor so I packed it in for the day.

Day 2:

Woke up and the shoulder was definitely achy, not like injury but like "hey, we did something yesterday' so that is good, definitely changing.

As per johnyandell I watched a lot of video of Fed, and did a lot of shadow swinging and visualization. It was windy, but warmer and I decided to take it to the practice court.

Lots of visualization and shadow swinging, I promised myself I would take it slow.

Round 1: Very awkward feeling, but looked much like my old motion. I did a *better* job of getting into the trophy, but still flexed my wrist and dropped the racquet down my back "on edge."

https://youtu.be/FxXtjva3eNM

Round 2: Tried to be more deliberate at the trophy point, feel like I got into a better position but still flexed the wrist and dropped the racquet on edge.

https://youtu.be/vPWUxsYkKx0

Round 3: I built in a pause to accentuate the trophy, to no avail.

https://youtu.be/ZNPtVT7Lc3Y

At this point I was cold and hungry, so I decided to go make some lunch, do some video analysis, and work out a few things indoors.

I could tell the issue was right after the trophy in the drop initiation, instead of just supinating/externally rotating my shoulder, I was flexing my wrist and my forearm putting the racquet down my back like sheathing a sword, then external rotation came further into the drop. Shadowing the Fed way vs my way seemed to get the racquet into (and possibly out) of the drop much quicker. In addition to scrubbing off speed, could this extra delay behind my back be a contributor to my chronically high toss?

I also looked to one of my role models for inspiration, The Panama Express. Smooth as glass, effortless power, clean repeatable motion, apex competitor and excellent sportsman.



Round 4: After lunch I tried to shadow the motion several times, focusing on the drop, but as soon as I tried with the live ball I went back to the old habit.

https://youtu.be/E44QCuq_ofw

Round 5: I shadowed the takeback to trophy, then held the position, tossed and hit. Still did not achieve the desired drop.

https://youtu.be/POT-mjqnnm0

Round 6: I did the same thing, but initiated the drop before I tossed, getting the racquet past the post trophy tipping point by supination and ESR. It seemed better, but the desire to go to the old drop was clearly still present. This definitely put some torque on the old elbow. I would have to be very careful not to push things.

https://youtu.be/DVDKKUlyIY8

Round 7: I went even further into the drop before tossing, which should have made it nearly impossible to revert to the old habit. Torque on the elbow was noticeable so I went very carefully.

https://youtu.be/87qnd86ORdY

Round 8: More of the same as 7, I tried to stay as loose as possible and just see how it went. Seems like easier path to full pronation/ISR but I could be imagining it.

https://youtu.be/KttwndEMl6o

Day 2 conclusion: I feel like know where I need to go, but it will be a long and arduous journey. For a brief moment I wondered if it was foolish to tear down a very good motion, but then I realized that no, this is what makes me who I am and even if it didn't work I had to try.

J

[J011yroger]

A long time ago I was talking to Brian Gordon and John about the role of wrist flexion in the serve, I offered to hit 10 serves normally and 10 with a wrist splint which would keep my wrist in the neutral position for the entire motion and check the difference in speed. Brian talked me out of that because he said if I took away one power source my body would try to make up for it somewhere else and I was likely to injure myself.

Now I am thinking of trying it as a kinesthetic learning tool, and just go very slowly through the motion and I will feel the feedback when I try to flex the wrist.

J

[seano]

J011yroger -

I have used the wrist splint, as well. Used it in students that had severe wrist flexion. I can certainly see what Brian's talking about with taking away a power source, with wrist extension to wrist neutral, in the upward swing, being a major power source for racquet head speed.

SeanO

[J011yroger]

J011yroger -

I have used the wrist splint, as well. Used it in students that had severe wrist flexion. I can certainly see what Brian's talking about with taking away a power source, with wrist extension to wrist neutral, in the upward swing, being a major power source for racquet head speed.

SeanO

I'd love to know if the wrist flexion pre-drop is a big deal, or I am trying to change something that doesn't really matter.

I've always wondered if my drop looks good, does it matter how I get there.

I don't want to change just to *look* like Federer. Marius Copil served 150mph with a forward entry and on edge drop as best as I can tell.

Please forgive the lunacy of the comparison, but what is the difference between what Copil is doing and what I am?

J

[seano]

J011yroger -

Boy, the word that comes to mind when watching Copil's serve is "dynamic". He must have some fast-twitch muscle fibers and great shoulder flexiblity. Look how far he sweeps the racquet to the side in the external rotation part of the upward swing. Haven't paid too much attention to Copil as a player but he has some impressive "pop". Also notice how quickly after contact he gets to 180 degress of ISR. He also has a very fluid rhythm that he has developed over his progression. Extremely jealous of his serving talent.

SeanO

[J011yroger]

J011yroger -

Boy, the word that comes to mind when watching Copil's serve is "dynamic". He must have some fast-twitch muscle fibers and great shoulder flexiblity. Look how far he sweeps the racquet to the side in the external rotation part of the upward swing. Haven't paid too much attention to Copil as a player but he has some impressive "pop". Also notice how quickly after contact he gets to 180 degress of ISR. He also has a very fluid rhythm that he has developed over his progression. Extremely jealous of his serving talent.

SeanO

Yea, I never really studied him much until I worked with a guy who was coaching him at the US Open last summer. Do you see what I mean about the drop? Would love to have John or Brian's opinion on the matter.

J

[J011yroger]

Copil's strings face the back fence in the drop while Fed/Pete never do...

He is also pushing up with the legs before the racquet reaches the apex of the trophy position, as we were talking about in the Opelka thread.

J

[seano]

From the videos I see on Youtube, Copil seems to have good timing with the start of the racquet drop/leg drive and deepest racquet drop/full leg extension. He also seems to have the racquet face perpendicular to the line of his shoulder blades, as John has advocated.

[J011yroger]

Yes, I am talking about the path they take to get to full drop. Fed/Samp go one way, Copil takes a different route. I can try to make a video tomorrow to show what I mean if you don't see it.

J

[seano]

J011yroger -

Sorry, I just noticed your very in-depth post with the 8 rounds of video from this morning. Your dedication and resolve is impressive. Here are some observations:

1) Old habits die hard
2) Feet - balance still an issue. Notice how many had the rear (right) foot being the first foot into the court. At contact, the hips are square to the net and you "fall" into the court. I'd be curious, in an attempt to get the legs more involved, what it would look like if you had more of a rocking motion (weight shift) where you shift your weight more to the back foot (as the tossing arm drops) with the front foot totally on your heel (a la Fed.). Making sure your front foot is the first foot into the court after contact (in the direction of the hit).
3) I noticed in the slow motion, trophy position videos, 2 things: a) movement from your fingers (slight grip change?) as you start the drop b) strings pointing towards the sky, instead of "on edge" when starting the initial racquet drop (elbow pain?). Then you would find your normal racquet path.

I'm not sure I'm totally understanding your Pete/Fed/Copil comparison.

On a side note, what camera are you using to make your videos?

Thanks for the diverson from the virus boredom

SeanO

[J011yroger]

I'm not sure I'm totally understanding your Pete/Fed/Copil comparison.

On a side note, what camera are you using to make your videos?

Thanks for the diverson from the virus boredom

SeanO

The difference between Pete, Fed, Copil, and me is the only thing we are working on now, the feet are irrelevant and the trophy is working on the change.

Study dropping the racquet on edge as opposed to the Federer way.

I'm just using my phone to take the videos.

J

[seano]

Not to belabour the point or to be a pain but remember what Brian Gordon said - "the leg drive and a relaxed shoulder is what allows the racquet drop to be a function of inertia". A relaxed shoulder allows the arm to be "cranked" to extreme positions, allowing for maximum ESR (diagonal sweeping motion outward). "A relaxed shoulder occurs when the ESR is being cause by something other than a muscular activity". Don't discount the legs too much, you have a racquet drop caused by muscular activity. Won't mention it again, keep up the hard work.

[glacierguy]

Leg drive. By chance yesterday I was re-reading Mark Kovacs' Complete Conditioning for Tennis, and thought I'd try some different exercises and chose some of the lower body power development ones, specifically jumping onto a box, and jumping off a box with bounce afterwards. Bit of an eye-opener, I now realise the leg drive in my serve has 'gone to sleep' (tbh it was always a bit weak). It might be worth having a go at box-jumping to re-invigorate your leg drive.

[J011yroger]

seano This is what I am talking about.

https://youtu.be/jx9k2Gik7Nk

J