Serving Coronas.

[seano]

J011yroger -

1) Regarding the idea of tilting the upper body too far left w/ right leg going too far right, at contact. Using the center service line as your reference point, notice that is first step w/ the left foot is ok BUT notice after the second step w/ the right foot, how far left of the center service line you are. Ideally you should be moving in the direction the ball was hit.

2) I totally agree with wanting to get up on your toes to drive up BUT initially, there's no real weight shift to the back foot where up to 60% of your weight is on the back foot/leg, that's when the foot would be flat. If your always on your toes your not getting the maximum ground reaction force possible.

DB -

Love your premise of striving for perfection, couldn't agree more. Your idea of lack of rhythm is spot on.

[J011yroger]

J011yroger -

1) Regarding the idea of tilting the upper body too far left w/ right leg going too far right, at contact. Using the center service line as your reference point, notice that is first step w/ the left foot is ok BUT notice after the second step w/ the right foot, how far left of the center service line you are. Ideally you should be moving in the direction the ball was hit.

2) I totally agree with wanting to get up on your toes to drive up BUT initially, there's no real weight shift to the back foot where up to 60% of your weight is on the back foot/leg, that's when the foot would be flat. If your always on your toes your not getting the maximum ground reaction force possible.

DB -

Love your premise of striving for perfection, couldn't agree more. Your idea of lack of rhythm is spot on.

1) Yes, looks like it could be better, that's one of those habits I have to stay on top of. Are you saying it's not the tilt that is the problem, but the fact that it's to the left instead of forward? Looks to me like elite servers are chest facing the net, and tilted with the shoulders nearly perpendicular to the court at contact on the first serve. Can you show a picture of what you mean? I tend to look at Federer, Sampras, Roddick, and Thiem.

2) I just tried it out in the office the way you describe, flat on the back foot, front foot de-weighted, then toss and roll up on the toes as the hips go out forward (I took some liberties guessing what you were implying.) It feels pretty good, much smoother. I am going to give it a shot and see how it goes. Rain is pushed off till 3pm now, so hopefully it will warm up a bit.

Thanks again!

J

[seano]

J011yroger -

Below are 2 rear-view videos of Roger Federer. Freeze-frame both at contact. Notice how Roger's rear foot is almost directly behind the front foot. He definitely has a "hip over hip", "shoulder over shoulder" forward motion where he stays more sideways. It's not until after contact does his torso truly twist around to square. You're more open at contact and your right foot is much more to the right, forcing you to veer to the left after landing.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Rear2_500fps.mp4&new=

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Rear4_550fps.mp4&new=

[don_budge]

Notice how Roger's rear foot is almost directly behind the front foot.

I believe that the set up position for the serve is much like an Archer's setup. It is designed for aiming purposes which at the same time just so happens to get all of your energy vectors in a row in order to insure that you are ergonomically correct (EC). The imaginary line made by the two points of the big toes on each foot make a line at your target. Nice to know that the rest of your body will automatically adjust itself from the position of your feet to aim as well.

Then if follows that a parallel line in front of your feet serves as the "track" of your backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLq40bUuKuQ

Now J011yroger makes a nice backswing pass along this imaginary track even though he does it too quickly to appreciate in his real time motion.Even though his feet are slightly askew from the imaginary marker. Look how he is pointing the tip of the racquet as well in his set up position...this is another aiming cue. Like the tip of an arrow.

I like this slow motion video. It does sort of amplify the blemishes. See the regripping in the trophy hesitation position. Not that it is a problem but it is interesting. J011y also seems to manipulate the racquet face a bit here as well. He sort of closes the face just a bit. The only reason I mention it is because of the grip pressure issue. Maintaining a consistent grip on the racquet. But these little tiny "blemishes" as I call them...not that there is anything wrong with them...are possible indications of where to look for that 10 to 15 percent your body is telling you that you have left off the table.

Interesting stuff...J011y and seano. Like examining a little tiny virus under the microscope. Oh well...the thread is called "Serving Coronas". I thought it might be a beer commercial at first.

[J011yroger]

J011yroger -

Below are 2 rear-view videos of Roger Federer. Freeze-frame both at contact. Notice how Roger's rear foot is almost directly behind the front foot. He definitely has a "hip over hip", "shoulder over shoulder" forward motion where he stays more sideways. It's not until after contact does his torso truly twist around to square. You're more open at contact and your right foot is much more to the right, forcing you to veer to the left after landing.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Rear2_500fps.mp4&new=

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...50fps.mp4&new=

Interesting, it almost looks like he pulls his legs up to sort of pike, like you would on a jump overhead. Like he is crunching his abs and pulling his legs up.

My legs are still straightish at contact. I hazard that it is not the direction of launch causing it but that he is consciously pulling them together.

On the first link he is almost as sideways as a second serve, on the second the chest is more open, perhaps more than mine.

Let me try to bang an image together.

J

[J011yroger]

See Photo.



J

[seano]

J011yroger -

1) Direction of the serve (i.e. down the T or out wide) could explain how open or closed the shoulders may be.

2) All that follows are quotes from Brian Gordon about trunk flexion when I brought up the subject from his serve videos. Brian sees "crunching the abs" as a bad thing.

For seano and regarding trunk flexion - There is not much discussion about this (from me anyway) because on a well executed forward oriented serve this motion of the torso is a flaw - a major flaw at the extreme. Flexion will be evident only if not enough forward angular momentum is generated by pushing on the ground - in this case the trunk flexion is one last ditched effort to get the upper torso moving forward. But... this has a negative influence on the progression of the arm segments and interferes with the upper torso twist influence on arm progression - bad thing.

Based on this hopefully it is clear that should one NOT have adequate forward rotation of the entire body by design (twist based or forward based around a diagonal axis like Fed) some trunk flexion may required to compensate. That is why the serve is so fascinating to me, there are so many variables packed into a very short period and it is interesting to see the variety of solutions individual players build or acquire.

So... I guess we should be specific about the various roles of trunk flexion. Is it passive or is it active - and if active what is the goal.

In the case of the diagram a "slight" forward flexion is a passive natural consequence of the previous torso rotations - indeed this is normal position regardless of the momentum base.

As I said before, in serve variations where forward rotation is lacking by design, some minimal active flexion may be required - the purpose of this is positional. The variations often requiring this are twist based and forward type but around a diagonalized axis like Fed - not that his is bad, the package works for him.

Jackknifing to me implies extensive active flexion for the purpose of directly impacting racquet head speed (based on when it occurs). Trunk flexion of this sort would however have a very minimal impact on that speed compared to the must faster rotations of the arm joints that have been shown by me and others to impact racquet speed nearing impact. It would also have downward pulling influence on the arm and racquet which is why players that try this often hit in the bottom of the net.

To me it is clear that active trunk flexion to produce racquet speed is a flaw born of failure to produce and transfer adequate forward angular momentum. The more interesting thought from the world of biomechanics is that in contrast to active flexion, that an extensor torque (reversal of flexion) would apply an acceleration of the arm forward - the old whip analogy. A presentation I did at American College of Sport Medicine conference in 2004 showed it doesn't happen that way.



SeanO

[J011yroger]

Very interesting, both serves were down the T if I recall, I specifically checked if one was wide.

Do you agree that Fed's legs look more bent than anyone else who's just seem to be straight as they were at max extension?

The only thing I can compare it to is a jump overhead, but obviously just a tiny bit.

J

[don_budge]

The problem with these stills...is that there is no problem. Real strength at moment of impact. No amount of this or that is going to find you that 10-15 percent that you long for. A change in philosophy might though. Your dilemma is one that must lead you to conclude that you can develop more power by trying less. It's a tough realisation to come to particularly after working so hard all those years to get to this point. I salute you. But the point is...it is how you get here that will provide you with the answer to your quest. That elusive 10-15%.

Your quest will be found in the white light in an old golf kon...you will only find this missing piece by trying less. More "power" with less effort. Effortless power. I know you are ignoring me which is quite ok. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I don't get tired in students who refuse to listen to the truth. You know the kind. They look at you and think in their minds that somehow they are accomplishing something by refusing to listen to you wise words of advise. I don't get tired...or bored. I have the patience of a rock. An old Indian friend of mine told me...he could out wait a rock. Good advice for a teacher.

I ask the student...what is power? The answer...control is power. What is control...I ask? Control is the combination of three elements...speed, spin and placement. No where is this more true in developing the perfect serve sans friction. You are pounding it J011yroger. Let's face it...you are happy with that. That's a good thing. I'm happy for you.

[don_budge]

DB -

Love your premise of striving for perfection, couldn't agree more. Your idea of lack of rhythm is spot on.

“The second half of a man's life is made up of nothing but the habits he has acquired during the first half.” (Fyodor Dostoyevsky from "The Demons" or "The Possessed" written in 1871)

An interesting quote from Fyodor in perhaps the most epic of all his epics. Lesser known than the more famous but nevertheless this novel is totally applicable to the political conditions of 2020 America.

But the point is...this is an obvious conclusion. We can say that halftime in a man's life is forty years old if we assume life expectancy to be eighty. Normal people have given up on the philosophy of continuous improvement and lack insight on how to actually get there. After all...they are headed into the unknown at this point. The point where young is no longer young.

At this point much of the improvement is going to come from philosophical or spiritual epiphanies. You no longer can expect the body to work its magic without some support. It's an interesting quote and it doesn't matter either if its relevance is lost on anyone reading it. For me it has enormous ramifications. For the next guy next to nothing.

[don_budge]

Count Yogi...case in point

At first glance you write this guy off as at the very least...an eccentric character. But what if I told you that he possessed one of the greatest swings of all time. He is giving a golf lesson on the street. Listen carefully...for your cue to the missing 10-15%. Or 110% of your potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzL-g5qa4wM

At .43 in the video:

Tee the ball up gracefully. Club foot...tee it up gracefully. Feet first...tall and loose. Boneless...muscleless. Look at your club face in front of your eyes not crooked. Look where you're shooting. One line it up...up arc. Two step around foot turned out. Three even...stop! Four the club head...back...loose. Five return it to be bodily perfect...perfect! Bodily perfect!

The 15-20 percent perceived potential is in the takeaway of the club head...I mean the racquet head. Boneless...muscleless. Total relaxation so that the body can function like a whip...not a battering ram.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Front1_250fps.mp4&new=

Roger's motion is continuous through all points in between. But observe how it is at its slowest as it falls behind his head. The transition between back swing to forward swing. Like twilight...betwixt and between. It falls...with gravity. Boneless muscleless. Effortless. This is supreme control. Letting go of all desire to kill it knowing full well that you will kill it without even trying. Golf swings and service swings have this in common and it actually goes against human nature. The impulse to hit must be overridden by the desire to swing purely.

[stotty]

Mr Fluidity...serving was a little different back then but the flowing, fluidness of this serve is undeniable. Forwards rather than upwards was the order of the day at that time. I rather like it.

https://youtu.be/ldi3EcACOb0

[glacierguy]

Count Yogi...case in point

Letting go of all desire to kill it knowing full well that you will kill it without even trying. Golf swings and service swings have this in common and it actually goes against human nature. The impulse to hit must be overridden by the desire to swing purely.

Well said.

[J011yroger]

The problem with these stills...is that there is no problem. Real strength at moment of impact. No amount of this or that is going to find you that 10-15 percent that you long for. A change in philosophy might though. Your dilemma is one that must lead you to conclude that you can develop more power by trying less. It's a tough realisation to come to particularly after working so hard all those years to get to this point. I salute you. But the point is...it is how you get here that will provide you with the answer to your quest. That elusive 10-15%.

Your quest will be found in the white light in an old golf kon...you will only find this missing piece by trying less. More "power" with less effort. Effortless power. I know you are ignoring me which is quite ok. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I don't get tired in students who refuse to listen to the truth. You know the kind. They look at you and think in their minds that somehow they are accomplishing something by refusing to listen to you wise words of advise. I don't get tired...or bored. I have the patience of a rock. An old Indian friend of mine told me...he could out wait a rock. Good advice for a teacher.

I ask the student...what is power? The answer...control is power. What is control...I ask? Control is the combination of three elements...speed, spin and placement. No where is this more true in developing the perfect serve sans friction. You are pounding it J011yroger. Let's face it...you are happy with that. That's a good thing. I'm happy for you.

I'm not ignoring you!

J

[J011yroger]

don_budge I understand what you are saying, but I am trying to use the video so I am not searching in the dark.

On my forehand, I have a clean path to and through the ball, and when I hit it well it feels absolutely clean and effortless.

On my serve I think my path to and through the ball is not idea, kind of like having a kink in the garden hose if you stretch the analogy.



J