This professor - University of Western Australia studied pronation. Doesnt do much.

[Error]

An older article for your enjoyment. The only thing I could find that remotely studied the issue. It seems so many rec level players are convinced of the virtues of pronation but this is the only reference to a study of the issue that a half assed 20 minute search could pull up.

http://ushsta.org/beware-of-pronation/

[johnyandell]

Great article. The confusion is over terms. Technically pronation is the rotation of the forearm from the elbow joint. That's different from the rotation of the hand, arm and racket from the shoulder.
Brian Gordon has found even less influence of the forearm rotation than Bruce. The reality is the arm rotates until the racket face is facing the side fence and that is driven by the arm in the shoulder joint.

[seano]

If I had to guess I would say the research was taken from the late 70's or early 80's. Since then, technical advancements have allowed for a more comprehensive understanding of what actually occurs during the serve, from a biomechanical standpoint. Like John mentioned, the argument is about a misuse of terms, "pronation" is a movement from the elbow involving the forearm. A more precise term for the upward swing would be the role of Internal Shoulder Rotation or as Dr. Bruce Elliot called it, "Long Axis Rotation". Once there's a consensus of proper terms, then a more accurate discussion can be had.

From a teaching standpoint, a thorough knowledge of the science of the serve can benefit the widest range of students. Some students will "naturally" have a proper service motion, less fortunate students will have to learn from verbal cues. Others still will learn from visual cues, while others will learn kinesthetically. What's important is to recognize where in the kinetic chain the breakdown occurs and as simply as possible correct the problem, using the cues that work for that particular student. . There are direct and indirect contributors to a successful serve, hopefully with proper set-up and execution a natural upward swing occurs. But If the upward swing/contact/follow through doesn't have a full 180 degrees of ISR, there's a breakdown somewhere previous in the swing, not allowing the student to reach their full potential or possibly setting up the student for potential injury. Not addressing problem areas is a disservice to the student. I've always liked the phase - "technical deficiencies limit tactical options".

[glacierguy]

I was going to post on "Junior Kick", but this one might be better. My own injury history gives me some insight into this debate. I initially tore, and then repeatedly strained my pec. major, which is one of the main muscles responsible for internal shoulder rotation. The external- to internal- shoulder rotation puts the pec. major through a classic stretch shortening cycle. The consequence of my injury-prone pec. is that sometimes, when I'm coming back from a strain, I deliberately avoid going for much ISR in my serve. The key word there is "deliberately". I can definitely choose to "do it" or "not do it". I'm talking about ISR while the elbow is still bent and the wrist holding the racquet at an angle to the forearm. So, if I don't do much ISR, it's a decent serve, and the racquet face moves from edge-on to the ball, through about 120 degrees into the follow through, with the last 30 degrees of that being down to involuntary pronation of the forearm after contact when the arm has straightened out. If I commit to ISR, it's a much more powerful serve, and the racquet face moves from edge-on to the ball, through about 180 to 200 degrees into the follow through, with the last 90+ degrees being down to involuntary pronation of the forearm after contact.

For a slightly different perspective, it's all about generating angular momentum, and the consequences of conservation of angular momentum.

(And for those concerned souls out there, I've been really working on my shoulder stability and core, and am currently injury free - hurray! and touchwood.)

[don_budge]

I was going to post on "Junior Kick", but this one might be better. My own injury history gives me some insight into this debate. I initially tore, and then repeatedly strained my pec. major, which is one of the main muscles responsible for internal shoulder rotation. The external- to internal- shoulder rotation puts the pec. major through a classic stretch shortening cycle. The consequence of my injury-prone pec. is that sometimes, when I'm coming back from a strain, I deliberately avoid going for much ISR in my serve. The key word there is "deliberately". I can definitely choose to "do it" or "not do it". I'm talking about ISR while the elbow is still bent and the wrist holding the racquet at an angle to the forearm. So, if I don't do much ISR, it's a decent serve, and the racquet face moves from edge-on to the ball, through about 120 degrees into the follow through, with the last 30 degrees of that being down to involuntary pronation of the forearm after contact when the arm has straightened out. If I commit to ISR, it's a much more powerful serve, and the racquet face moves from edge-on to the ball, through about 180 to 200 degrees into the follow through, with the last 90+ degrees being down to involuntary pronation of the forearm after contact.

For a slightly different perspective, it's all about generating angular momentum, and the consequences of conservation of angular momentum.

(And for those concerned souls out there, I've been really working on my shoulder stability and core, and am currently injury free - hurray! and touchwood.)

I didn't understand a word you said until..."And for those concerned souls out there, I've been really working on my shoulder stability and core, and am currently injury free - hurray! and touchwood." Now you're talking brother...glacierguy. I read you loud and clear. Super glad to hear it because it works. What works? Hard work. I'm telling you...that is all this old world truly understands...hard work. Keep it up.

But all irony aside...good stuff boys! seano...good stuff man! I'm trying to get up the courage to reply to your comment.

[glacierguy]

Thanks don_budge! There's no getting around it, hard work pays off. 4 sets last Friday, one double fault, no breaks. My sister, who's a retired vet, retrained as a physical therapist, recommends the occasional sports massage for those of us (and I'm looking at you don_budge) who are training hard. I did ask my physio about it and he suggested that based on my frame "Big Louie, the South African ex-rugby player" might take me on! Haven't yet plucked up the courage, but my sister says she always felt 10 years younger and way more flexible afterwards.

[glacierguy]

Just read the article in first post. Actually there's not too much to disagree with in the discussion of pronation. However, as an ex-physicist, I draw the line at the assertion in the "What is Power?" section which states (I am not kidding) "Another word for speed is Force,..."

[don_budge]

The problem with terms like pronation and ISR when teaching tennis or golf is that I believe that these two things are actually products of motion. Is it possible to say that "I am going to pronate more on this shot" or "I am going to use more ISR on this shot"? I am not a denier that these two things actually exist. But, on the other hand I have never, ever told a student to "pronate on this serve" or "try to internally rotate your shoulder" a bit more on this serve. First of all they wouldn't have any idea what I was talking about. Secondly if they did try to pronate more that effort would in all likelihood interfere with the motion.

Case in point...young Knifer. It looks to me that his serve motion is pretty darn good. It actually could be refined to look better and in the refining process he would find that it actually function better. Does he lack sufficient ISR? I wouldn't know but if he did I am sure that the reason would be in a somehow faulty motion. The only way to fix that fault is understanding the root cause.

I find that in my golf swings and particularly so on the short shots where you cannot use a full swing it is ultimately important not to try to consciously do something "extra" with the hands. Everything should be synched with the shoulders and the centre of the core. If you try or subconsciously do something with the hands or wrist you are going to find that the results are inconsistent as these muscles are impossible to control...particularly under pressure. But if you synch the clubhead or the racquet head with the body and shoulders then if you refine your motion to behave in a frictionless manner (no kinks) then you find that the swing repeats itself.

At the same time don't get me wrong. I find the explanations of seano in particular to be rather interesting. But somehow my approach to tennis is less scientific...less quantitative than qualitative. I see it more as an art form. With flow and metaphysical laws that tap into the primal man wielding the club or racquet. Like the hunter that the human once was. The numbers and physics somehow get in the way of truly understanding the game. It is a game by the way. Not a job or a research paper. Children learn by watching and mimicking. They feel the movement with their eyes connected to their brain. I still feel the same way. I can see with my eyes and when I see something like a service motion or a golf swing I can feel and detect friction in the motion with my eyes and brain. The eyes don't lie...whereas sometimes the numbers actually do.

The best results of a motion require a substantial amount of relaxation. The bodies joints act like a series of hinges. This requires not only control but a knowledge and confidence that the motion is perfect and therefore does not require any outside influence from extraneous sources other than the motion itself. Watch the professional golfers. It never ceases to amaze me at the ridiculous distance they hit the golf ball with so little effort. Roger Federer has that same effect on me...watching him even at this late stage in his career makes me think "poetry in motion".

So I am curious how experts in the science of kinesiology would respond to this post. Somehow I doubt that they will. It's like climate. The numbers appear to tell a story but the reality is the sun is source of the results. Somehow I am the bane of kinesiologists even though I don't know it, much as deniers are of alarmists. Any movement in the sun in a remote hiccup, fart or burp are going to be felt here on earth. That doesn't make me a denier though. Perhaps a skeptic. That would be more like it.

[don_budge]

Ha! Now I even read the article. Interesting to compare my take with the expert. Not that either are right or wrong.

[J011yroger]

The problem with terms like pronation and ISR when teaching tennis or golf is that I believe that these two things are actually products of motion. Is it possible to say that "I am going to pronate more on this shot" or "I am going to use more ISR on this shot"? I am not a denier that these two things actually exist. But, on the other hand I have never, ever told a student to "pronate on this serve" or "try to internally rotate your shoulder" a bit more on this serve. First of all they wouldn't have any idea what I was talking about. Secondly if they did try to pronate more that effort would in all likelihood interfere with the motion.

Case in point...young Knifer. It looks to me that his serve motion is pretty darn good. It actually could be refined to look better and in the refining process he would find that it actually function better. Does he lack sufficient ISR? I wouldn't know but if he did I am sure that the reason would be in a somehow faulty motion. The only way to fix that fault is understanding the root cause.

I find that in my golf swings and particularly so on the short shots where you cannot use a full swing it is ultimately important not to try to consciously do something "extra" with the hands. Everything should be synched with the shoulders and the centre of the core. If you try or subconsciously do something with the hands or wrist you are going to find that the results are inconsistent as these muscles are impossible to control...particularly under pressure. But if you synch the clubhead or the racquet head with the body and shoulders then if you refine your motion to behave in a frictionless manner (no kinks) then you find that the swing repeats itself.

At the same time don't get me wrong. I find the explanations of seano in particular to be rather interesting. But somehow my approach to tennis is less scientific...less quantitative than qualitative. I see it more as an art form. With flow and metaphysical laws that tap into the primal man wielding the club or racquet. Like the hunter that the human once was. The numbers and physics somehow get in the way of truly understanding the game. It is a game by the way. Not a job or a research paper. Children learn by watching and mimicking. They feel the movement with their eyes connected to their brain. I still feel the same way. I can see with my eyes and when I see something like a service motion or a golf swing I can feel and detect friction in the motion with my eyes and brain. The eyes don't lie...whereas sometimes the numbers actually do.

The best results of a motion require a substantial amount of relaxation. The bodies joints act like a series of hinges. This requires not only control but a knowledge and confidence that the motion is perfect and therefore does not require any outside influence from extraneous sources other than the motion itself. Watch the professional golfers. It never ceases to amaze me at the ridiculous distance they hit the golf ball with so little effort. Roger Federer has that same effect on me...watching him even at this late stage in his career makes me think "poetry in motion".

So I am curious how experts in the science of kinesiology would respond to this post. Somehow I doubt that they will. It's like climate. The numbers appear to tell a story but the reality is the sun is source of the results. Somehow I am the bane of kinesiologists even though I don't know it, much as deniers are of alarmists. Any movement in the sun in a remote hiccup, fart or burp are going to be felt here on earth. That doesn't make me a denier though. Perhaps a skeptic. That would be more like it.

If I'm cutting the ball I try to hold the on edge more and if I am driving the ball more (flatter serve) I try to rotate into it more, I don't know if I'm changing how I swing or when I hit the ball and the swing is the same if any of that makes sense.

J

[Error]

The problem with terms like pronation and ISR when teaching tennis or golf is that I believe that these two things are actually products of motion. Is it possible to say that "I am going to pronate more on this shot" or "I am going to use more ISR on this shot"? I am not a denier that these two things actually exist. But, on the other hand I have never, ever told a student to "pronate on this serve" or "try to internally rotate your shoulder" a bit more on this serve. First of all they wouldn't have any idea what I was talking about. Secondly if they did try to pronate more that effort would in all likelihood interfere with the motion.

I agree %100 percent!! I think it was mostly the youtube decade where "coaches" or anyone with a racket and a camera decided to call himself an expert by taking something like a forehand motion and slice and cut it up into a million different bits and pieces and then name each bit and piece and sold it all to recreational level players who think that is how you learn to play tennis.

Everything you see happening with an advanced players is the result of fundamental practice, ie practicing fundamentals, not practicing pronation or ISR or racket lag etc. Those things are the RESULT of practice not the things you practice. I had the misfortune of watching a private lesson on the forehand from one of the biggest "coaches" on youtube and it was the most horrific thing I've ever seen. It was worse than I ever imagined a lesson on the forehand could be. I'm sure the poor women left more confused than when she walked in.

[don_budge]

Thanks don_budge! There's no getting around it, hard work pays off. 4 sets last Friday, one double fault, no breaks. My sister, who's a retired vet, retrained as a physical therapist, recommends the occasional sports massage for those of us (and I'm looking at you don_budge) who are training hard. I did ask my physio about it and he suggested that based on my frame "Big Louie, the South African ex-rugby player" might take me on! Haven't yet plucked up the courage, but my sister says she always felt 10 years younger and way more flexible afterwards.

Retired vet...as in veterinarian? Combat vet? Hard work does pay off. It's one of the variables that you should do your best to take out of the equation. Did I do my best? Did I absolutely leave no stone unturned? Chances are if you can answer yes and no you are on the right track. Right now glacierguy I am in the middle of week two of Phase II in my rehabilitation/prehabilitation and I'm a belieber. The initial effort in Phase II pretty much left me speechless. It was a "rude awakening". The honeymoon is over. Now is the work phase. Phase I was only preparation for the next phase. Just an example...14 lunges with five kilos straight over head followed immediately with one minute of stepping up onto then the other side of a box that is over knee high with ten kilos in each hand. Two sets and one minute rest in between. The one exercise that leaves me gasping is swinging a 16 kilo kettle bell from between my legs out in front of me over my head 14 times. Three sets in conjunction with a lift with a 4 kilo weight extending my arms out to shoulder level. The "kicker" at the end of my session is the 250 meter sprint done four times with one minute in between each effort...trying to break a minute in the sprint.

So I am experiencing a fatigue that I have to admit I am unfamiliar with. I watched my trainer Mona take this giant down yesterday. Big strong guy. Just took him down. The massage sounds like that might just be the ticket. I had one once but talked my way through the whole thing. Many years ago in Hawaii at a resort where "The Ugly American" comped me one in the spa. I did get through to the therapist and ended up with her for a year. I was doing most of the massaging in the end. Like the Seinfeld episode where he is dating a massage therapist and can't get any on his own. I'm looking around.

Phase II is eight weeks long and then it will be another eight week phase into the golf season. I will be a different animal come spring though. Not sure if it will be "bikini time" though. But I haven't begun to fight! Keep up the hard work and it is no coincidence it pays off. Problem is that in todays rush for the legal tender it is just nigh impossible for the average Joe to have the time to dedicate oneself as you must.

[glacierguy]

Retired vet...as in veterinarian? Combat vet? Hard work does pay off. It's one of the variables that you should do your best to take out of the equation. Did I do my best? Did I absolutely leave no stone unturned? Chances are if you can answer yes and no you are on the right track. Right now glacierguy I am in the middle of week two of Phase II in my rehabilitation/prehabilitation and I'm a belieber. The initial effort in Phase II pretty much left me speechless. It was a "rude awakening". The honeymoon is over. Now is the work phase. Phase I was only preparation for the next phase. Just an example...14 lunges with five kilos straight over head followed immediately with one minute of stepping up onto then the other side of a box that is over knee high with ten kilos in each hand. Two sets and one minute rest in between. The one exercise that leaves me gasping is swinging a 16 kilo kettle bell from between my legs out in front of me over my head 14 times. Three sets in conjunction with a lift with a 4 kilo weight extending my arms out to shoulder level. The "kicker" at the end of my session is the 250 meter sprint done four times with one minute in between each effort...trying to break a minute in the sprint.

So I am experiencing a fatigue that I have to admit I am unfamiliar with. I watched my trainer Mona take this giant down yesterday. Big strong guy. Just took him down. The massage sounds like that might just be the ticket. I had one once but talked my way through the whole thing. Many years ago in Hawaii at a resort where "The Ugly American" comped me one in the spa. I did get through to the therapist and ended up with her for a year. I was doing most of the massaging in the end. Like the Seinfeld episode where he is dating a massage therapist and can't get any on his own. I'm looking around.

Phase II is eight weeks long and then it will be another eight week phase into the golf season. I will be a different animal come spring though. Not sure if it will be "bikini time" though. But I haven't begun to fight! Keep up the hard work and it is no coincidence it pays off. Problem is that in todays rush for the legal tender it is just nigh impossible for the average Joe to have the time to dedicate oneself as you must.

That is some workout - great to hear. I'm looking forward to the golf season for the first time ever, just to hear how you do. Sorry for confusion - my sister is a retired veterinarian. That background gives her a good insight into physiology, plus she's still competing in duathlons for GB (in her age group). Compared to her training routine, I am a lightweight, but I have seen the commitment that's necessary, and it does encourage me to try harder.

Agree 100% about time constraints for average Joe. I know I'm lucky to be retired and healthy. I feel bad for some of the guys I know working all hours to get by. The tennis coaches I know are on court for hours at a time, picking up injuries, and not able to work on their own games. They would love to stroll down to the courts and hit serves...

[don_budge]

That is some workout - great to hear. I'm looking forward to the golf season for the first time ever, just to hear how you do. Sorry for confusion - my sister is a retired veterinarian. That background gives her a good insight into physiology, plus she's still competing in duathlons for GB (in her age group). Compared to her training routine, I am a lightweight, but I have seen the commitment that's necessary, and it does encourage me to try harder.

Agree 100% about time constraints for average Joe. I know I'm lucky to be retired and healthy. I feel bad for some of the guys I know working all hours to get by. The tennis coaches I know are on court for hours at a time, picking up injuries, and not able to work on their own games. They would love to stroll down to the courts and hit serves...

The 250 meter sprint is done on a rowing machine by the way. Ah...veterinarian. Got to love a good vet. We have four dogs and horses. A good vet is worth their weight in gold. Mentally tough too. Unbelievably tough. This year we had two horse put down. Talk about excruciating pain. For me it was life changing and they make a living at it. Empathy comes at a cost too. I really have a deep admiration for vets. A love even. In all we have had four dogs leave us. Another world of pain as well as joy. Knowing the love of a dog for a lifetime is beyond riches. The vets that helped us in this tender moment are truly wonderful people. Such compassion and understanding at such a critical time.

My confidence is a bit out of control. Brimming. I wonder how it will influence my golf. Now I am past the point of that being my sole objective. The fitness has taken on a meaning of its own. But I have one admirer telling me that I will be scratch. I said to my wife the other day..."I am going to skip the 70's and just go straight to the 60's". Once upon a time a was a 2 handicap and it felt like I would play in the 60's everytime. I did sometimes. The Phase I has virtually wiped out any worries about my age competitively speaking. Phase II is taking me to territory unknown...to me. That and an unusual method that I have "discovered" for the short shots. Pitching, chipping and putting. A rather interesting grip technique. The claw grip. It is used by some professionals for putting but I had never ever seen anyone use it for chipping and pitching. I did search the internet and came up with one video of some guy discussing it. Here's Phil Mickelson talking about putting with the "claw". Keep in mind that tennis is golf on the run...as told by don_budge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WmFKoJghYM

The beautiful thing about golf and tennis...I always say they are God's gift to mankind in terms of recreation...is that they are repetitive motions based on rituals in our minds and if you believe in our spirits. "Golf in the Kingdom" is my favourite golf book...period. It is a story that takes place in Scotland of all places. You are going to have to try the golf glacierguy. It is tracking you. This game has found you and you don't even know it. Get a couple of lessons and just go to work. Fly me over to Scotland and I'll be your Shivas Irons...the golf pro in the book. I actually believe that I am a better golf instructor than a tennis instructor.

[don_budge]

I agree %100 percent!! I think it was mostly the youtube decade where "coaches" or anyone with a racket and a camera decided to call himself an expert by taking something like a forehand motion and slice and cut it up into a million different bits and pieces and then name each bit and piece and sold it all to recreational level players who think that is how you learn to play tennis.

Everything you see happening with an advanced players is the result of fundamental practice, ie practicing fundamentals, not practicing pronation or ISR or racket lag etc. Those things are the RESULT of practice not the things you practice. I had the misfortune of watching a private lesson on the forehand from one of the biggest "coaches" on youtube and it was the most horrific thing I've ever seen. It was worse than I ever imagined a lesson on the forehand could be. I'm sure the poor women left more confused than when she walked in.

I believe that the practice is a story in itself. Some of the ideas that were expressed in the recent series of articles by Archie really forced me to think deeply about practice and the best say to benefit from it. How to get the best bang for the buck. It comes down to the individual largely but getting around the idea of hard work is just impossible. "Talent" will take you just so far and often it is the case of one guy outworking the rest.

Fundamental is such a key word in the tennis teacher's lexicon. My coach stressed fundamentals. I have coined a phrase...Fundamentally Correct (FC). It is the acid test for a reliable tennis stroke or golf swing. Big or small.

This is not to minimalist the science. I admire guys like seano and am a bit disappointed in myself that I cannot carry on an intelligent conversation with him on his terms. I think of tennis and golf as body sciences as well as philosophical and artistic pursuits. Not to mention psychological and emotional challenges. So to encompass the whole enchilada I like to approach them through what I refer to as "metaphysics". Illusions and allusions. Whatever it takes to get through to the student. If you understand what I am talking about...go pass go and collect 200 dollars! Best of luck with the young lady...I still would like to see the video of her serve.