Junior kick

[stotty]

Tough to argue with a snapshot like that!

[J011yroger]

I'm just going to lay this down right here.

Do you see how the kid's front knee is buckled and his hips and shoulders are aligned? He is turned, not twisted, basically just facing the back fence instead of loading.

His legs are loaded vertically but most of that is lost due to the early racquet drop.

You haven't responded to any of my posts so I will leave you alone if you want.

J

[don_budge]

The Clone and The Original...

I'm just going to lay this down right here.

Do you see how the kid's front knee is buckled and his hips and shoulders are aligned? He is turned, not twisted, basically just facing the back fence instead of loading.

His legs are loaded vertically but most of that is lost due to the early racquet drop.

You haven't responded to any of my posts so I will leave you alone if you want.

J

J011yroger...don't let that stop you. The rest of us are listening...reading. If sometimes it is only to hear yourself talk...that's good enough. Put your thoughts out there as clearly as you can. Thanks for posting. knifer has yet to respond to me too. That's ok. I continue to observe...and listen.

If the two pictures are for comparison purposes it is true that they appear to be similar. But upon closer inspection there are some rather interesting differences. Turned...not twisted. Sounds like a 007 martini...sort of. Much like this kid's serve can be compared to Pete Sampras'.

The observation of turned is true. Look at the direction of Sampras' knees. They are basically still in the direction that they started. What has changed is the tremendous load in the legs. Look at the Kid Knifer's hips...they are parallel to the baseline. Sampras'? Still in their basic position at address. KK's shoulders...also parallel to the baseline. Sampras'? They have rotated approximately 90 degrees to 45 degrees to the baseline. Keen observations J011yroger. An excellent lesson in the copy not living up to the original. We might call this the "Dimitrov Syndrome".

A couple of other revealing differences...slight but perhaps indicative that there is a root cause or rather a pathway to undeveloped potential. While everything else is over rotated the angle of the racquet face is not as open to the camera as Pete Sampras' is. The spacing of the hand to the head is also less.

So what to make of this? Root cause? I would say it is what might be referred to as the "aesthetics" at this point. After all he is getting "excellent" results but the question is always where is the undeveloped potential. How much better could it be if it were perfect? If you look at the comparison of their full deliveries the glaring difference is exactly where I have been pointing from my first post...which incidentally J011yroger has not been responded to. But I have an inkling that you might be responding to me. Sampras' is swinging his racquet back into position and is creating more "width" in his backswing. Notice to that Sampras' starts his racquet in his address position and that position has not changed into the position that he is in the photo. This is one fluid and perfect motion. No friction.

Kid Knifer's motion has the glaring glitch in his backswing or lack of one. The movement is rather Herkey Jerkey in a sudden and abrupt move to the "trophy position" or what Brian Gordon might refer to as the "Probation Position". It's important in how you get there.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/index.html?dir=ps_serve/PS_1st_Serve&stroke=PS1stSAdCourtLevelFront.mp4&new=

Look at the beautiful languid movement to the top of the motion that Pistol Pete uses to get there. At the top everything almost comes to a stop. Like the car on a rollercoaster track that has reached the top of a long climb. Now look at Kid Knifer's. Which is more appealing to the eye? Which is going to hold its effectiveness more often than not when the nerves get edgey.

Set up and backswing knifer...for the umpteenth time. But it is quite ok to continue to have your love affair with notion of ISR or pronation. Take your pick. It's all the same to me...and apparently J011yroger too.

[stotty]

Do you see how the kid's front knee is buckled and his hips and shoulders are aligned? He is turned, not twisted, basically just facing the back fence instead of loading.

His legs are loaded vertically but most of that is lost due to the early racquet drop.

You haven't responded to any of my posts so I will leave you alone if you want.

J

Well spotted. I didn't realise you could click on the photo to expand it. Sampras' is better positioned drive up...really drive up. Mind you it is probably the best serve ever.

[don_budge]

Interesting that even though Kid Knifer has over rotated compared to Pistol Pete the racquet face is not as open and it doesn't appear that the arm has kept up with the rotation of the body. The body is way in front of the arm in terms of rotation. So my question to seano is...what are the implications now in terms of ability to deliver the racquet head to the ball with ISR?

[knifer]

Do you see how the kid's front knee is buckled and his hips and shoulders are aligned? He is turned, not twisted, basically just facing the back fence instead of loading.

His legs are loaded vertically but most of that is lost due to the early racquet drop.

You haven't responded to any of my posts so I will leave you alone if you want.

J

I have been reading all posts. Actually, my iPhone mobile version logs me out of the forum and when I try to log back in, it routes me to the paid login site. I started to subscribe but it won't let me keep Knifer as my screen name so I momentarily got frustrated.

Also, my boy was in a tournament this weekend. He fought off 3 match points in the second set versus a 9.18 UTR, won the tie breaker and won the 3rd set TB; then played a 9.08 UTR, split sets and fought off 3 match points, lost 3 of his own match points and lost 16-14 in the match tiebreaker in the semi-finals.

It was a stressful weekend, but I read 100% responses all the time. Sometimes, I just don't have a response accept just to absorb the message. On a desktop during the week, so its easier to navigate.

Actually, we are still a little bummed today about losing the 3 match points.

[J011yroger]

I have been reading all posts. Actually, my iPhone mobile version logs me out of the forum and when I try to log back in, it routes me to the paid login site. I started to subscribe but it won't let me keep Knifer as my screen name so I momentarily got frustrated.

Also, my boy was in a tournament this weekend. He fought off 3 match points in the second set versus a 9.18 UTR, won the tie breaker and won the 3rd set TB; then played a 9.08 UTR, split sets and fought off 3 match points, lost 3 of his own match points and lost 16-14 in the match tiebreaker in the semi-finals.

It was a stressful weekend, but I read 100% responses all the time. Sometimes, I just don't have a response accept just to absorb the message. On a desktop during the week, so its easier to navigate.

Actually, we are still a little bummed today about losing the 3 match points.

How old is your boy? That is a great tournament and though I am sure you are bummed (as I would be as well) there is so much potential to gain from a situation like that.

One of the things I have to do as a coach is to be acutely aware of what breaks in the biggest moments and then find the right time to address it.

If my player doubles to lose a super in the final of a tournament after coming back from being down 2-5 in the second set I'm going to have to give him some time to heal, but if we are playing a practice set I can stop it right there and say "hey, play that point again and make your serve to my backhand." If it's a practice match or ladder match against a peer it's somewhere in between.

J

[knifer]

How old is your boy? That is a great tournament and though I am sure you are bummed (as I would be as well) there is so much potential to gain from a situation like that.

One of the things I have to do as a coach is to be acutely aware of what breaks in the biggest moments and then find the right time to address it.

If my player doubles to lose a super in the final of a tournament after coming back from being down 2-5 in the second set I'm going to have to give him some time to heal, but if we are playing a practice set I can stop it right there and say "hey, play that point again and make your serve to my backhand." If it's a practice match or ladder match against a peer it's somewhere in between.

J

He's 15. He didn't choke though. He fought off 3-4 match points and lost 3 of his own, but the points were individually well fought. He's just not getting free points consistently off the first serve yet. Will need that versus the 9 UTR+ players.

[J011yroger]

He's 15. He didn't choke though. He fought off 3-4 match points and lost 3 of his own, but the points were individually well fought. He's just not getting free points consistently off the first serve yet. Will need that versus the 9 UTR+ players.

That's great. Don't overlook opening the court and finding the forehand. Boys develop at different rates and in different areas, even tour players can have pedestrian serves, everything is respective of level.

Certain areas you can say ok a 13 will attack this ball but a 12 won't but those situations are rare. As much emphasis should be put on the first ball as is put on the serve.

All of the sudden people start missing returns when they know a weak one will be dispatched.



J

[tennisdad]

I am TennisDad now. I joined!

[stotty]

I am TennisDad now. I joined!

That's great. Welcome aboard! I preferred Knifer, but guess I'll get used to tennisdad...

[arturohernandez]

Just to add my 2 cents about the ISR view. I agree with both views. ISR does exist but our minds ideally won't know what it is. Ideally, it will be just a feeling that we develop about the kinesthetics of the stroke.

But with regard to it being a real thing. I would develop exercises to try and develop. Richard Williams had his two daughters throw American footballs. That seemed to work out okay.

I agree with don_budge and everyone else who advocated taking it slow. I would have saved myself a lot of headache by not rushing to improve my serve.

It took years to cherish hitting slow serves.

[tennisdad]

At the 0:17 mark, its the only serve that in real match play. The 4-5 frames after ball collision seem to me to show his right bicep turning toward the ground with the elbow pointing skyward. Also, that serve was a higher arcing topspin serve than the others. Does that particular one demonstrate ISR more than others?

[stotty]

No it's the same as the others. He achieves a higher arc simply because he's hitting up on the ball more. Go to this clip and start watching from a round 12:00. It will give you a good idea about what to look for and, more importantly, how you might achieve it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqYg_IShYCQ

[J011yroger]

No it's the same as the others. He achieves a higher arc simply because he's hitting up on the ball more. Go to this clip and start watching from a round 12:00. It will give you a good idea about what to look for and, more importantly, how you might achieve it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqYg_IShYCQ

Oh man, I need to lend him a shorter pair of shorts. The 'stache, the whites, the yellow glasses, he has it all.

J