Junior kick

[stotty]

Okay I popped over to the archive and I reckon the internal arm, hand, racket rotations are a little less on a second serve than a first serve. It certainly seems that way with Novak, and to a slightly lesser degree with Roger.

Whether a toss thrown very much to the left inhibits these internal rotations, I am not sure. It's over to John for that one. Seano may have some ideas on the issue.

[Error]

Error,
Except for Edberg all your photos are showing hand and racket rotation. Fed totally rotates on every serve as does Thiem as does Isner. Here is an article showing my views on it.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ell/the_serve/

We can agree to disagree but the evidence shows it's a real thing.

My point is, whatever we call pronation, it's not intentional, Federer did not learn how to pronate. Its happening as a result of something else and many great players dont do it at all, some players do it sometimes and not others. Edberg is clearly not doing it in the snapshot above, Delpo is not doing it either unless you call any outward turning of the wrist pronation. Becker and McEnroe are doing it but I can find many examples of those players not doing it.... I have in the past but I don't have the wherewithal to go through it again.

My daughter never heard the term pronation and hits very high level serves. She arguably has as good a serve as anyone her size can have.I never even bothered to notice if she pronates and I taught her. I can serve well and I have no idea if I pronate. So Im just making the point that tennis is about fundamentals not pronation, racket lag, the trophy position, leg drive , core rotation etc. Those things may be the result of mastering the fundamentals but they aren't the things you concentrate on. Thats my view.

The missing ingredient for almost all people searching for a way to improve is practice. Practicing a few fundamentals will get you much farther than worrying about all of these other peripheral things that IMO will only screw you up.

[knifer]

I posted to get technical advice and received awesome advice from my first post. I will say that from a result standpoint he has 1 serve mastered of probably 8 serves he needs in his arsenal- Second serve in the ad court will be returned with a right hander's backhand outside the double alley even if they know it is coming. Simply no way to run around it. He can hit a nice slider out wide in the deuce court, but is not matured enough to pop much over 100 mph, but he's 15...

[glacierguy]

I've followed this thread with interest. You must be proud of your son, he has talent. If I could manage a racquet drop as deep as that, I'd get another 10mph at least! My initial reaction on looking at the video was that the toss was a bit far left, but I could be wrong.

[knifer]

Thanks for the kind words. The left toss is a function of where he is trying to hit. On this video, draw your attention to the ball stuck in the fence as well as the subject tennis ball traveling toward the same location. I'm not sure if that angle can be achieved with a standard toss? Anyone?

[J011yroger]

Thanks for the kind words. The left toss is a function of where he is trying to hit. On this video, draw your attention to the ball stuck in the fence as well as the subject tennis ball traveling toward the same location. I'm not sure if that angle can be achieved with a standard toss? Anyone?

Yea, but you have to face more towards the back fence and rotate under the ball.

I can try to get some video of me doing it but it's hard indoors.

J

[J011yroger]

Also since nobody mentioned, the more topspin or kick the more the racquet face will be towards the back fence instead of the side fence for flat or slice.

J

[stotty]

The left toss is a function of where he is trying to hit. On this video, draw your attention to the ball stuck in the fence as well as the subject tennis ball traveling toward the same location. I'm not sure if that angle can be achieved with a standard toss? Anyone?

Novak and Roger hit good second serves from around a 12 o'clock position on contact. Both get considerable kick and can achieve the same angle, serving from a singles position, as your son is doing serving from a doubles position. Roger is especially good at getting an extreme angle when he wants to. Roger can do absolutely anything without altering his ball toss much at all!

Hitting seconds serves from a toss so far over to the left, as you son is doing, could be asking for trouble from an injury standpoint.

From a tactical standpoint the extreme angle is only valuable if used sparingly. In doubles you are leaving the tramline open, and in singles, opponents can get used to it (the toss telegraphs what's coming) and it simply gives them more angles to gun for. Admittedly, a returner has to be good to deal with it.

Roger is the man to watch for tactical serving. He often goes deep into the box, to the backhand, rather than an extreme angle to the backhand. A player doesn't have to worry about making his serve un-run-roundable so long as they can serve to all the spots and disguise their delivery. The extreme toss is merely telling your opponent exactly what is coming. With Roger, no one knows what's coming. Sampras was the same. That comes with being able to deliver all the serves from a very similar ball toss.

McEnroe, tactically, was the best of all with his serve. He would, at key times, alter his serving position along the baseline, which gave opponents a different look as well as a different angle of delivery. He made himself so awkward to play simply by the way he used his serve. He's a masterclass.

don_budge, in this regard, has the best and right idea. It isn't just about hitting key positions/checkpoints. The best serves are built form the ground up and attention to detail is paramount. You want a smooth, silky motion that flows. I personally discourage extreme ball tosses for numerous reasons.

Your son is a fine player and I don't want to come across over critical. You have done a fine job and you are clearly a dedicated father. You are going to great lengths to help your son and all of us on the forum can see and respect that very much. This has been a wonderful thread, by the way.

[johnyandell]

Knifer,

Just one month even would clarify a lot of things.

[johnyandell]

Error,
It's not pronation--you still have that confused. Far far more great servers do it than not. The internal rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint is the main source of racket speed. When that continues into the followthrough it's an indication of maximizing racket speed. As for Delpo he rotates at least half as much as many others on the first serve.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...40fps.mp4&new=

On the second serve he tends to make it further and often all the way.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/JD_Arm_Action&stroke=JD_2ndS%20Ad%20ArmAction%20Rear%20240fps.mp4&new=

The way to think of it is like the followthrough on a groundstroke. The right followthrough is what maximizes the acceleration.

[don_budge]

Knifer,

Just one month even would clarify a lot of things.

First month is a freebie isn't it? But take a year Knifer...the bang for the buck is significant. It's an investment in "The Kid". By the way...the last video is a great angle. You can talk about pronation and ISR all you want but the thing that dictates the presence of these aspects of the swing is the path of the racquet head. Pay attention to the "address position" and the backswing in particular. "The Kid" has a pretty nice motion already and the results are promising. He needs some finishing touches with regards to what one might consider to be aesthetics but in reality they are the bits and pieces that are going to turbo charge his serve. Might as well install the software now so that when he is eighteen he is hitting all eight from the same delivery so that they are virtually undetectable by the receiver. This is what makes Roger Federer the best server in the game at the age of 37. What was it that seano said in that other thread...

From a teaching standpoint, a thorough knowledge of the science of the serve can benefit the widest range of students. Some students will "naturally" have a proper service motion, less fortunate students will have to learn from verbal cues. Others still will learn from visual cues, while others will learn kinesthetically. What's important is to recognize where in the kinetic chain the breakdown occurs and as simply as possible correct the problem, using the cues that work for that particular student. . There are direct and indirect contributors to a successful serve, hopefully with proper set-up and execution a natural upward swing occurs. But If the upward swing/contact/follow through doesn't have a full 180 degrees of ISR, there's a breakdown somewhere previous in the swing, not allowing the student to reach their full potential or possibly setting up the student for potential injury. Not addressing problem areas is a disservice to the student. I've always liked the phase - "technical deficiencies limit tactical options".

Let me simplify that for you seeing as I am from the school of K. I. S. S. (Keep It Simple Stupid). What he is saying is that the magic is in the potion...I mean the motion. Frictionless motion...right seano? Get the racquet on track with zero friction and what can go wrong? You miss the first and just reach back and hit the second harder...with more spin. You cannot miss two in a row with a perfect motion.

johnyandell uses the Roger Federer motion in his video presentations. There is no better model in the modern game. Come to think of it I attached a couple of those videos in my comments but you cannot access them. Which brings us back to...just ante up. I promise you you won't be sorry. Bang for the buck is the key operative.

[don_budge]

Made me smile, and look up Godwin's Law, which asserts "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1". I think we've discovered a modified Godwin's Law related to ISR on the TennisPlayer forum.

Made you smile? You are killing me. There was a guy here who used to call me "Mein Steve". He hurled every Nazi invective he could get his hands on. He seemingly burned out and has faded into anonymity. Right into the sunset. Perhaps right into the internet. I don't miss the Nazi stuff. Not that I ever knew any. In 1989 I was in Germany the month before the wall came down. Gorbachov was in Berlin. I was in Munich having this passionate discussion with this Danish Girl and I asked her..."Where are the Nazis?" She looked at me and leaned across the table and whispered..."They are in the woods." What a conversation that was. My friend and I made our way to the pub where the thing all supposedly started but was unable to pick up the trail. Therefore I am unable for the life of me able to understand how that word gets tossed around so "liberally" these days. Has anyone actually ever met a Nazi?

[seano]

John -

Would you say the lack of ISR on some of Delpo's serve could be attributed to the lack of a sweeping motion (as Brian Gordon described it) in his external shoulder rotation? Less ESR to IRS coupling. Also doesn't load the rear leg like some others.

SeanO

[johnyandell]

Possibly!!

[knifer]

I'm just going to lay this down right here.