Forehand help: Internal shoulder rotation

[rthodges]

[rthodges]

rthodges...I like the idea floating around about the medicine ball. It is an excellent example. To throw this heavy object you are going to need a firm base from which to launch it. I recommend using a base such as Roger Federer has here in his default position. I love this particular view of his forehand and I think that you can use this as a template with a few modifications.

In the first seven frames or so using the right arrow key Roger is determining that the ball coming at him is going to be a forehand. Notice how he is rather "deep" into his knees and he is almost in a semi-sitting position. Even though you are using a ball machine and you know that the ball is coming where and when it is coming you should try to act like you are anticipating. In the eight frame he is going to start turning to the ball and his racquet is going to turn with his body and not independently by the use of his arms...much like you do.

In frame 16 we see the fruit of his unit turn and his racquet hand has not lifted one iota. I notice that you lift your racquet with your arms and I would eliminate this as wasted motion.

In frame 22 the ball has entered the picture and as a result of Roger's meticulous preparation he is going to land his front foot towards the ball at the precise instant the ball is bouncing in front of him. This is a most extraordinary frame and one that you would do well to study in detail. This is the moment that he is going to go forwards to strike the ball and this frame is the one that best defines what he is doing and what you are not doing. Notice how the strings of Roger's racquet are facing the wall that is perpendicular to the court. His feet are on a line more or less in line with his shoulders. His racquet, feet and shoulders are in the same plane when he is going to begin to go forwards. One might say that when the ball is bouncing that you should "step to the ball and strings to the wall".

In this very same frame take notice of his left hand. See how he is reaching towards the wall that his strings are pointing at. Look at how much of his back you can see from this angle. Look at the position of Roger's behind. He is still in that semi-sitting position...the one that you do not get into throughout your stroke. Ass back and head forwards. A balancing act. The two heaviest parts of the body. Roger's hips at this point are almost in line with his feet as well. Racquet, feet, shoulders and hips all in a line...in the same plane. It's pretty classic sports positioning. Think baseball. Think golf. It all relates to tennis as well.

Frame 22 is perhaps the most dynamic position of the forehand. He is betwixt and between. This is where the backswing meets the forwards motion. If I were to name this position I would call it "get in position". Get in position to go forwards. By the way the importance of this position cannot be emphasized enough. This is where tennis matches are largely won and lost...all other things being equal. The player that is able to get himself in position to take a well balanced swing most of the time is the one who is playing from a position of strength.

Ok...now it is time to initiate the swing. Four frames forwards to frame 25...Roger front foot has hit and is planted squarely on the pavement. Note how his feet are aligned. The back foot big toe is approximately in line with the instep of the front foot. This is Roger's default foot position when he is aggressively going to make a move on the ball. But observe what has happened to Roger's lower body in the last four frames. After the foot has met the ground Roger is going to transfer his weight to his front foot and this is done by a rotation of the hips.

This is where the power is generated through the kinetic chain. See how the shoulders are perpendicular to the baseline and his hips are approximately 45 degrees past his shoulders. Still in a semi-sitting position (where you are standing straight up at this point) Roger is in a very powerful position to deliver the payload with this rotation of his upper body. This all happens very quickly now. In two frames it will all be over. From frame 25 to frame 26 his shoulders have fully rotated so that they are now in line with his hips but the racquet has not really moved all that much. But in one single frame the racquet comes screaming through with all kinds of head speed as Roger's shoulders now are parallel with the baseline yet his head has not moved at all. He is swinging in a barrel. No forwards shifting at all. He is squarely behind the ball.

One more frame and the racquet passes over to the other side of his body and the motion is for all intents and purposes over although the residual momentum carries the racquet all the way around his body. But notice that front foot is still on the ground and the head is just beginning to lift to watch the result of his shot.

thank you so much for taking the time to type all of that out! I think I’m seeing what you’re saying as I look over the frames. I did some medicine ball work today and realized how much work I need to do on my setup and stance. I think one of the reasons I’m defaulting to open stance is that I still need to have more of an initial turn. I’m going to be putting some serious work into the medicine ball drills and developing a better rhythm and setup into the “get in position” as you called it. I’ve always had a 1-2 rhythm with my feet, but it seems like I’ve gotten into a bad habit on going 1-2 1 into the shot and hitting open. I think hitting more neutral stance like you and Stotty have suggested will help get my footwork back on track.

One question I had was about eliminating the racquet lift with my arms as I complete my unit turn. Should I be lifting the racquet at all or will it just happen as a product of a full unit turn and left arm extension?

[stotty]

I did some medicine ball work today and realized how much work I need to do on my setup and stance. I think one of the reasons I’m defaulting to open stance is that I still need to have more of an initial turn. I’m going to be putting some serious work into the medicine ball drills and developing a better rhythm and setup into the “get in position” as you called it. I’ve always had a 1-2 rhythm with my feet, but it seems like I’ve gotten into a bad habit on going 1-2 1 into the shot and hitting open. I think hitting more neutral stance like you and Stotty have suggested will help get my footwork back on track.

One question I had was about eliminating the racquet lift with my arms as I complete my unit turn. Should I be lifting the racquet at all or will it just happen as a product of a full unit turn and left arm extension?

I bet you felt it in those stomach muscles the next day? It's an incredible exercise for widening a player's base and developing the core. Great as well that you are drilling into the finer details as you go. I will leave don_budge to address your racket lift question.

[rthodges]

I bet you felt it in those stomach muscles the next day? It's an incredible exercise for widening a player's base and developing the core. Great as well that you are drilling into the finer details as you go. I will leave don_budge to address your racket lift question.

Oh yeah, I had to break out my hypervolt for some tlc. My core is sore but surprisingly it’s my trapezius, rhomboids, and scapulae that are feeling it the most. I think it’s because I’m used to over rotating and pulling my shoulder up and the through the shot, so my shoulder and shoulder blade muscles aren’t used to braking and rotating.

I’ll work on getting some video of points as well as the backhand and serve videos don_budge wanted soon!

[don_budge]

thank you so much for taking the time to type all of that out! I think I’m seeing what you’re saying as I look over the frames. I did some medicine ball work today and realized how much work I need to do on my setup and stance. I think one of the reasons I’m defaulting to open stance is that I still need to have more of an initial turn. I’m going to be putting some serious work into the medicine ball drills and developing a better rhythm and setup into the “get in position” as you called it. I’ve always had a 1-2 rhythm with my feet, but it seems like I’ve gotten into a bad habit on going 1-2 1 into the shot and hitting open. I think hitting more neutral stance like you and Stotty have suggested will help get my footwork back on track.

One question I had was about eliminating the racquet lift with my arms as I complete my unit turn. Should I be lifting the racquet at all or will it just happen as a product of a full unit turn and left arm extension?

Good feedback. This is a two way street. Regards the typing...I'm very fast. I am typing a stream of thought. I can basically keep up but I'm not perfect. Sometimes I go back and read and find errors. I don't spend much time proof reading.

Get in position! Get your ass in position! So many times I want to yell that. Butt back head forwards...weight on the front foot. Stay down! Don't come up so hard you leave your feet. No jumping at the ball.

So you ask the question "WHY?". That's fair. It's always a good question.

From the dictionary... furbelow...showy ornaments or trimmings: frills and furbelows just made her look stupid.

Gladys Hellman once when describing what made the Richard Gonzalez serve so beautiful...so elegant. She remarked about the absence of "furbelows". What a quaint word. But does a furbelow make you look stupid?

Well...in this case it is unnecessary. Look at Roger Federer's stroke. The absence of furbelows once again comes to mind. Just as about efficient as it can possibly be. Frictionless. Greased lightening. rthodges...these are repetitive motions. When you go to make an incision to you make a little flourish with your scalpel before you dig in? I doubt it. Only a real hot dog would do such a thing behind such a serious endeavour. Repetitive motions are built to repeat. Under all circumstances. Perhaps your little flourish of lifting the arms and racquet will all be fine and dandy until certain conditions make it exploitable worthy. Maybe a windy day. Maybe an opponent who recognised that as a potential soft spot in your armour. Is he lifting the racquet? How does he do it? You don't even notice he is doing it. It's subtle. But he is doing it after the turn. So subtle.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Front.mp4&new=

Look at the flex in his knees. Does he lift the racquet or does he in one single motion accomplish all that needs to be done? Lift the racquet and lift the head? There is one point that everything revolves around...the sternum. Take the racquet back with your sternum and deliver the racquet head to the ball with it as well. Roger's racquet doesn't get much above his head.

One more thing...look at Frame #21. His foot has not been planted just yet. The ball is actually on the ground. But he's ready. Ready to pounce with all of his controlled energy and balance. He is poised. The racquet tip is pointing rather noticeably in the direction of his opponent. Some players really exaggerate this. Jack Sock and Nick Kyrgios come to mind. But Roger's racquet is definitely tilting. Just tilting. No furbelows...just perfect balance. Economy of motion.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/index.html?dir=rf_forehand/RF_FH_center&stroke=RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mp4&new=

Look at Frame #29. What is his right foot doing? He is poised on his big toe...isn't he? What exquisite balance after such a strenuous move. Balance. Like a ballet dancer. Like Mikhail Baryshnikov. Tennis is a game of energy and balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATO6Bk4KbQE

[don_budge]

rthodges...if you post the backhand and the serve start separate threads if you would.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwS_aOwValU

stotty et al...what do you think about the lifting of the racquet in the unit turn?

[don_budge]

Food for Thought...The Tennis Coach

...and 12 years of competitive swimming (age 6-18). I still swim a few times a week to stay in shape but now I alternate days between swimming and running.

...while I’m not delusional about developing a pro level forehand, my ultimate goal is to have that kind of consistent put away power relative to my level.

rthodges...by now you realize that all that I write might not be for you. But what any good tennis coach/teacher does is puts it out there as "food for thought". That is exactly what my dear old tennis coach used to tell me. You posted an excellent profile in very few words and your goals as expressed are certainly attainable with intelligent planning and practice. You have the mind to take things to their simplest form and implement. The LCD...Lowest Common Denominator. I am...like the others here...just giving you some cues. Some clues.

Do I remember you saying that you were doing a residency? In the OR? Roger Federer is sort of like Dr. Fahrenheit. He's a surgeon. The way he wields that scalpel. He is the master at dissecting his opponent with out making a bloody mess of it. You get the picture. The medicine ball is a great tool. Use a good set up in the most powerful position you can sit into to launch it. Hopefully you will get a pain in the ass. That's where it used to hurt when I was young enough to get down into position. That's where you play tennis from.

Recently for the first time in my life I have entered the gym under the guidance of a personal trainer. It has been very enlightening. I would recommend the same to you and express to the trainer that your goals are to increase your burst speed, endurance and balance. Instead of the swimming trade for something that is more in line with your tennis goals. I promise you the return on your investment of time and greenbacks will be the best bang for the buck.

Keep in mind...it is only food for thought.

[don_budge]

thank you so much for taking the time to type all of that out!

One question I had was about eliminating the racquet lift with my arms as I complete my unit turn. Should I be lifting the racquet at all or will it just happen as a product of a full unit turn and left arm extension?

The more I thought about it I realised what a good question you had rthodges. The devil is in the details. The thing is...I never get tired of analysing this forehand by Roger Federer because he is doing so many good things in it. I don't think that the racquet lift occurs as you complete your unit turn as you say. That's the thing. As I see in your last video you are lifting way before you "complete" your unit turn but you actually never do get turned.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Front.mp4&new=

Back to the video. The backswing...it is a swing. Isn't it? Right around Frame #10 Roger gets a whiff that this is a forehand. Look how wide his feet are and notice how deep he is into his knees and his butt. Sitting DOWN. Down is the key objective word here. He is down hunting this ball. Like a cat. Right arrow click seven more frames to Frame #17...look at the strings of his racquet. They are more or less looking for the ball. But he has hardly moved his hands or arms at all. He has basically done all of this with his sternum and his shoulders. He has stood up a bit so and he may have just "lifted" the racquet ever so incrementally. In Frames #21, #22 and #23 he is actually standing up as you can watch his head in relationship to the background behind him.

In Frame #18 he releases his left hand from the racquet...and here is the swing in "backswing". Up until this point his entire body has been engaged in this turning motion and we know this because both hands were on the racquet. Frames #19, #20 and #21 are the swinging part of the backswing. Without the other hand on the racquet he entrusts his right hand to complete the backswing as he continues to turn. Notice too what the left hand has done. It has continued to "swing" too as he extends his hand towards the perpendicular wall. He has completed the swing. Here is an incredible detail that I have never heard discussed nor have I ever notices it. Look at his spine angle and look at the angle of his racquet...they are parallel to each other. Racquet angle equals spine angle. This could only have happened if he had measured his turn and kept the racquet in synch with his shoulders via his hand. Interesting.

Make a mental list of some of these details that you want to focus on in your swing. Maybe actually make a list. Go with your ball machine and with around 60% effort try to key in on each of these points and hit ten balls with each individual point in mind. If you list five that would be fifty balls. Then hit about twenty keying in on the one point that best consolidated all of the points together.

Pay particularly close attention to your feet. I define this neutral stance with the back big toe in line with the front foo instep. Try to get your feet in exactly the same position every time. Kick yourself in the butt if you get lazy with your feet. I can't do it for you. Think spine angle.

Repetitive motions. Like a prayer. It is the ritual of repeating them that gives us satisfaction and control. Like Roger...the high Priest of Tennis. He's a control freak!

[stotty]

Oh yeah, I had to break out my hypervolt for some tlc. My core is sore but surprisingly it’s my trapezius, rhomboids, and scapulae that are feeling it the most. I think it’s because I’m used to over rotating and pulling my shoulder up and the through the shot, so my shoulder and shoulder blade muscles aren’t used to braking and rotating.

I’ll work on getting some video of points as well as the backhand and serve videos don_budge wanted soon!

Great work. The medicine ball will work a treat. Your body is simply forced to do the right things to launch the ball from one end to the other like to two guys in the clip. Better still, your tennis muscle memory gets bypassed. Spend enough time doing that kind of exercise and it will eventually translate into your game. Promise.

I swear some people think Roger just springs out of bed and plays beautiful tennis as if he has never had to put in a stroke of work in his life. Well, I can tell you the reverse is true. He works like stink and always has. Below is a clip of the young Roger which illustrates what I mean. Note that a ball of some sort is never far away in his training exercises. Apologies for the horrible soundtrack accompanying the clip. Some YouTubers just have no taste!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwh0GfA_eo

don_budge has given you lovely walk-thru Roger's forehand. Roger has taken stroke technique to a whole new level...no wasted movement...minimalist. Why lift the racket up when it can serve no purpose? Plenty of players lift their racket up and many coaches would consider it minor detail...but Roger's forehand is out on it's own. Enough said.

I have nothing to add to don_budge's elegant description of Roger's forehand other than Roger is so good at "getting to the side of the ball". It's the first thing he is looking to do. I know it sounds ridiculously fundamental but he always seems to do it better than most other players. I love the way he "clears and gets to the side".

You're an excellent student of the game, rthodges. You're polite and worthy of all the attention you get.

Yes, post separate threads for each stroke. Things will meander too much otherwise.

[rthodges]

The more I thought about it I realised what a good question you had rthodges. The devil is in the details. The thing is...I never get tired of analysing this forehand by Roger Federer because he is doing so many good things in it. I don't think that the racquet lift occurs as you complete your unit turn as you say. That's the thing. As I see in your last video you are lifting way before you "complete" your unit turn but you actually never do get turned.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Front.mp4&new=

Back to the video. The backswing...it is a swing. Isn't it? Right around Frame #10 Roger gets a whiff that this is a forehand. Look how wide his feet are and notice how deep he is into his knees and his butt. Sitting DOWN. Down is the key objective word here. He is down hunting this ball. Like a cat. Right arrow click seven more frames to Frame #17...look at the strings of his racquet. They are more or less looking for the ball. But he has hardly moved his hands or arms at all. He has basically done all of this with his sternum and his shoulders. He has stood up a bit so and he may have just "lifted" the racquet ever so incrementally. In Frames #11, #12 and #13 he is actually standing up as you can watch his head in relationship to the background behind him.

In Frame #18 he releases his left hand from the racquet...and here is the swing in "backswing". Up until this point his entire body has been engaged in this turning motion and we know this because both hands were on the racquet. Frames #19, #20 and #21 are the swinging part of the backswing. Without the other hand on the racquet he entrusts his right hand to complete the backswing as he continues to turn. Notice too what the left hand has done. It has continued to "swing" too as he extends his hand towards the perpendicular wall. He has completed the swing. Here is an incredible detail that I have never heard discussed nor have I ever notices it. Look at his spine angle and look at the angle of his racquet...they are parallel to each other. Racquet angle equals spine angle. This could only have happened if he had measured his turn and kept the racquet in synch with his shoulders via his hand. Interesting.

Make a mental list of some of these details that you want to focus on in your swing. Maybe actually make a list. Go with your ball machine and with around 60% effort try to key in on each of these points and hit ten balls with each individual point in mind. If you list five that would be fifty balls. Then hit about twenty keying in on the one point that best consolidated all of the points together.

Pay particularly close attention to your feet. I define this neutral stance with the back big toe in line with the front foo instep. Try to get your feet in exactly the same position every time. Kick yourself in the butt if you get lazy with your feet. I can't do it for you. Think spine angle.

Repetitive motions. Like a prayer. It is the ritual of repeating them that gives us satisfaction and control. Like Roger...the high Priest of Tennis. He's a control freak!

Definitely agree with what you said above, especially the flourish with the scalpel analogy. I went back and compared just my feet to Federer, Novak, and Agassi, and what I found was that I’m breaking simple movements into multiple steps. For a typical ball they all go from a low split step to a right foot pivot to a left foot step across the body. The entire body stays in line so that the hips, shoulders, and chest are all rotated. This also puts one foot several feet further into the court, while my feet are too often in a line parallel to the baseline. Their arms haven’t moved independently at all, which is where my problems start: I do a shuffle step, and then pivot and step while also bringing the racquet up with both arms. Even though my arms are moving together, it’s still an independent movement from the body which throws off my rhythm. Instead every pro forehand I’ve seen has no independent motion yet. The arms come up as the player stands up and makes a step with their right foot that sets them into a semi open stance. From there, if they have time, the will make a step forward with their left foot to step into the ball and hit neutral stance. Regardless, as the player stands up to step into semi open, they continue to rotate their torso, giving shoulder hip separation, and their off hand lets go of the racquet (frame 18) as the right hand drops down into the backswing in frames 19-21, the off arm starts to swing out and around, while the hips uncoil from either the semi open stance or as the player steps into neutral.

I think it’s this upward motion with my arms that is forcing me to add in extra steps. By having to come up and have independent motion earlier I’m not able to stay down like in frame 10. If I can eliminate the extra shuffle and early independent arm movement then I think I should be to stay down low longer, finish my unit turn, and use the time I get from eliminating the shuffle to take the extra step into neutral stance. Easy to say, difficult to execute I’m sure... does that all sound like I’m on the right track?

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Front.mp4&new=

In Frames #17, #18 and #19 he is actually standing up as you can watch his head in relationship to the background behind him.

Easy to say, difficult to execute I’m sure... does that all sound like I’m on the right track?

It certainly makes it a hell of a lot easier to execute if you can articulate it though. Well done and well thought out. Absolutely on the right track.

I made the above correction in post #39. I had mistakenly referenced frames #11, #12 and #13 but in reality I meant #17, #18 and #19. I told you I wasn't perfect. But it's a key point and virtually confirms everything you wrote. In these frames Roger is placing his back foot down and all of his weight is been noticeably transferred to his back foot and he will now go forwards. This is "GET IN POSITION TIME"...frame #19. Picture perfect. It is the point that is in between the backswing and the forwards swing. Sort of like twilight...it isn't day and it isn't night. I love my observation of the racquet angle and spine angle being the same here. This is the sort of thing that they speak of in "golfspeak". Surely there is some fancy biomechanical explanation for this significant frame.

Listen to johnyandell in his "Backhand Preparation" lesson in this month's issue. It virtually says the same thing only looking in the mirror. A perfect explanation of the backhand backswing. The same is true for the forehand.

Super post rthodges. You're listening before you speak. I can almost hear the wheels turning. To learn how to execute it I recommend my clue about the list. Separate these points. Give them a degree of separation and practice accordingly. Then as you are practicing and focusing on one thing you will start to be aware of the other components as well as they are all dependent upon one another. The ball machine will be perfect for this. Then use the cones and force yourself to move more and more for the ball. stotty makes a great point about Roger's ability to get to the side of the ball with perfect spacing. It is all about how he places that back foot. Finally...find a good wall to hit against. This will force you to execute without a lot of time for thinking. Once you master the stroke against the wall then it ready for the fire.