Forehand help: Internal shoulder rotation

[klacr]

first and foremost, So many great elements to this forehand! Let's celebrate those. I love the explosion and your intent. Kudos to you for displaying your forehand and letting us have at it.
seano and stotty pretty much got it right with their first post in regards to the elements that could be improved.
The ball machine is good but I would love to see some points. How you construct and set up your weapon and what your overall game style is like.
Really nice progress so far.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[J011yroger]

Wow, guys thank you so much for taking the time to look at my stroke and give such great advice! I actually had a chance to groove on the ball machine again last night and tried to implement the earlier turn and extension like seano suggested.

Stotty, I’ll have to study some Djokovic footage. I tried to take some inspiration from Agassi to simplify my unit turn and backswing, but that’s a really good point about my head and back. It’s definitely hard to not get casual with the ball machine, it’s a fine line between good and bad repetition. I’ll try and do some shorter and more intense clips going forward. I hit with my heel on 3 and my knuckle on 4.

Jolly, I think I get what you’re saying. Thanks for the pics, it’s a stark contrast! Are there any specific body parts I need to move differently to brake more and fire my hips earlier?

Here’s some video from yesterday:

The most important thing for you is the medicine ball throwing.

The other thing that might help is to stand behind the doubles alley, turn your shoulders past your hips so you feel a stretch across your torso and using your forehand motion throw the ball. When you throw the ball it has to go straight and stay in the doubles alley, I suspect that your throws will go to your left initially. That will teach you to use your body to create hand speed and stop your chest facing the target.

Then progress to doing it with the racquet and drop feeds.

Remember that you must hit the ball straight in this drill.

I do this twice a week, still.

J

[seano]

rthodges -

Thank you for the new videos. I especially like the front view, shows much more "elastic" energy in the forward swing. I like how your shoulders "quiet" when they're parallel to the net and how your arm takes over. That's one of the key characteristics of the type 3 forehand, independent arm movement. You can tell your a quick learner with your progress from the other videos, keep up the hard work and keep us updated.

Sean O

[stotty]

Great work so far...definite improvement already. I like J011yroger's medicine ball prescription. What you are doing here is educating your body to do the right thing. Sometimes it's better to lay your racket down and practice in way that will not allow your muscle memory to stick it's nose in where it's not wanted. Practicing throwing a medicine ball down the line forces you to delay rotation with your upper body and will start to give you the idea how you would like your core and upper body to work when it comes to playing tennis too.

I get my kids to do what these two guys are doing in the video (from 3:24 in the clip). It teaches them to use their core and how to rotate their upper body. When they do it it you will be amazed how much more dynamic they get; their base widens, they start to use their truck and upper body correctly...the list goes on. It's just a fab way to practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du4VNtVqqh4

In those clips you posted, don't neglect to use the neutral stance. Novak and Roger would happily ditch their semi open stance for a chance to step forward into some of those.

Amazing work...just shows when a player is receptive how fast things can happen.

[seano]

That can be an exhausting game, good game to use with a medicine ball.

[J011yroger]

That can be an exhausting game, good game to use with a medicine ball.

For the little guys and the adult beginners I use one of those big autograph tennis balls. I have fun playing mini with it after all these years.

Of course I do med ball work too for real, my favorite has one guy on an inverted bosu ball and one on a 24" plyo box. Bosu ball guy squats down and throws the med ball on his way back up to the guy atop the plyo box who jumps down with the ball and then back up and throws it back to the bosu ball guy. 10 reps then switch.

J

[rthodges]

Hey don_budge. Thanks, I’ve been using the coach’s eye app on my phone and a tripod so I can definitely get closer next time. I’m 26 and 5’11. My past experiences in athletics are high school and junior tennis, and 12 years of competitive swimming (age 6-18). I still swim a few times a week to stay in shape but now I alternate days between swimming and running. I actually stopped playing tennis for about 8 years after I graduated high school and just got back into it around a year ago. My girlfriend found out I used to play, signed us up for some lessons at our club, and my passion for the game has come back tenfold!
My goals are to develop my game so that I can win as many matches a possible playing an aggressive all-court style, I just have more fun when I can be aggressive and feel like the match is on my racquet, even if I don’t come out on top. For my forehand specifically, I want to develop a weapon where I can take control of the point from both behind the baseline and when stepping into the court and hitting on the rise. My favorite forehands of all time are Federer, Gonzalez, and Del Potro, and while I’m not delusional about developing a pro level forehand, my ultimate goal is to have that kind of consistent put away power relative to my level.

[rthodges]

first and foremost, So many great elements to this forehand! Let's celebrate those. I love the explosion and your intent. Kudos to you for displaying your forehand and letting us have at it.
seano and stotty pretty much got it right with their first post in regards to the elements that could be improved.
The ball machine is good but I would love to see some points. How you construct and set up your weapon and what your overall game style is like.
Really nice progress so far.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Thanks so much! I’ve been doing the ball machine lately because of my schedule. I’m in my residency and have OR night shift this rotation, so I’m on hiatus from my men’s league for the next few months. I started doing the ball machine as a way to unwind and decided I might as well turn the time into an opportunity to improve as much as possible until I’m on a normal schedule again. I have some family grudge matches coming up when I’m home for Xmas next week so I’ll try and film some live points then!

[rthodges]

The most important thing for you is the medicine ball throwing.

The other thing that might help is to stand behind the doubles alley, turn your shoulders past your hips so you feel a stretch across your torso and using your forehand motion throw the ball. When you throw the ball it has to go straight and stay in the doubles alley, I suspect that your throws will go to your left initially. That will teach you to use your body to create hand speed and stop your chest facing the target.

Then progress to doing it with the racquet and drop feeds.

Remember that you must hit the ball straight in this drill.

I do this twice a week, still.

J

Thank you so much, I think having the doubles alley as instant feedback will be a huge help. My hip rotation says that I’ve got some core and posterior imbalances to work on. Can’t wait to start this drill and Stotty’s, the next time I’m on the court!

[nytennisaddict]

The most important thing for you is the medicine ball throwing.

The other thing that might help is to stand behind the doubles alley, turn your shoulders past your hips so you feel a stretch across your torso and using your forehand motion throw the ball. When you throw the ball it has to go straight and stay in the doubles alley, I suspect that your throws will go to your left initially. That will teach you to use your body to create hand speed and stop your chest facing the target.

Then progress to doing it with the racquet and drop feeds.

Remember that you must hit the ball straight in this drill.

I do this twice a week, still.

J

i had to revisit this drill recentlly (or a version of it), when i was practicing inside-in forehands (i have a tendency to drift them wide)

i've been doing the medi ball thing with my daughter all summer as warmup to hitting.

[don_budge]

Hey don_budge. Thanks, I’ve been using the coach’s eye app on my phone and a tripod so I can definitely get closer next time. I’m 26 and 5’11. My past experiences in athletics are high school and junior tennis, and 12 years of competitive swimming (age 6-18). I still swim a few times a week to stay in shape but now I alternate days between swimming and running. I actually stopped playing tennis for about 8 years after I graduated high school and just got back into it around a year ago. My girlfriend found out I used to play, signed us up for some lessons at our club, and my passion for the game has come back tenfold!
My goals are to develop my game so that I can win as many matches a possible playing an aggressive all-court style, I just have more fun when I can be aggressive and feel like the match is on my racquet, even if I don’t come out on top. For my forehand specifically, I want to develop a weapon where I can take control of the point from both behind the baseline and when stepping into the court and hitting on the rise. My favorite forehands of all time are Federer, Gonzalez, and Del Potro, and while I’m not delusional about developing a pro level forehand, my ultimate goal is to have that kind of consistent put away power relative to my level.

Excellent profile. Exceeds expectations. This is the kind of information I was looking for. I am studying your forehand stroke and I have some very definite ideas. However you have made this more interesting with your profile so now I would like to see two videos of your serve and your backhand. FMI...for my information. Angles are the rear view somewhat to the side and the front view thirty degrees from straight on. Four videos. Thank you.

I feel that on the basis of your information that you deserve a comprehensive analysis. Like you...I am taking up golf after an approximately ten year layoff. I decided in the end to build my swing all over again from the ground up. This includes in my case a physical reconditioning of my body which may also apply to you.

"My goals are to develop my game so that I can win as many matches a possible playing an aggressive all-court style, I just have more fun when I can be aggressive and feel like the match is on my racquet, even if I don’t come out on top. For my forehand specifically, I want to develop a weapon where I can take control of the point from both behind the baseline and when stepping into the court and hitting on the rise. My favorite forehands of all time are Federer..."

Keeping this statement of your goals in mind and your admiration for the Federer forehand are a great basis from where to begin. Below is a link for a exquisite music video courtesy of johnyandell that is going to be an excellent place to begin. What the hell...take a look at this exquisite Roger Federer forehand as well. I will try my best to explain to you how these two videos apply to you.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/index.html?dir=rf_forehand/RF_FH_center&stroke=RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mp4&new=

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Front.mp4&new=

rthodges...I like the idea floating around about the medicine ball. It is an excellent example. To throw this heavy object you are going to need a firm base from which to launch it. I recommend using a base such as Roger Federer has here in his default position. I love this particular view of his forehand and I think that you can use this as a template with a few modifications.

In the first seven frames or so using the right arrow key Roger is determining that the ball coming at him is going to be a forehand. Notice how he is rather "deep" into his knees and he is almost in a semi-sitting position. Even though you are using a ball machine and you know that the ball is coming where and when it is coming you should try to act like you are anticipating. In the eight frame he is going to start turning to the ball and his racquet is going to turn with his body and not independently by the use of his arms...much like you do.

In frame 16 we see the fruit of his unit turn and his racquet hand has not lifted one iota. I notice that you lift your racquet with your arms and I would eliminate this as wasted motion.

In frame 22 the ball has entered the picture and as a result of Roger's meticulous preparation he is going to land his front foot towards the ball at the precise instant the ball is bouncing in front of him. This is a most extraordinary frame and one that you would do well to study in detail. This is the moment that he is going to go forwards to strike the ball and this frame is the one that best defines what he is doing and what you are not doing. Notice how the strings of Roger's racquet are facing the wall that is perpendicular to the court. His feet are on a line more or less in line with his shoulders. His racquet, feet and shoulders are in the same plane when he is going to begin to go forwards. One might say that when the ball is bouncing that you should "step to the ball and strings to the wall".

In this very same frame take notice of his left hand. See how he is reaching towards the wall that his strings are pointing at. Look at how much of his back you can see from this angle. Look at the position of Roger's behind. He is still in that semi-sitting position...the one that you do not get into throughout your stroke. Ass back and head forwards. A balancing act. The two heaviest parts of the body. Roger's hips at this point are almost in line with his feet as well. Racquet, feet, shoulders and hips all in a line...in the same plane. It's pretty classic sports positioning. Think baseball. Think golf. It all relates to tennis as well.

Frame 22 is perhaps the most dynamic position of the forehand. He is betwixt and between. This is where the backswing meets the forwards motion. If I were to name this position I would call it "get in position". Get in position to go forwards. By the way the importance of this position cannot be emphasized enough. This is where tennis matches are largely won and lost...all other things being equal. The player that is able to get himself in position to take a well balanced swing most of the time is the one who is playing from a position of strength.

Ok...now it is time to initiate the swing. Four frames forwards to frame 25...Roger front foot has hit and is planted squarely on the pavement. Note how his feet are aligned. The back foot big toe is approximately in line with the instep of the front foot. This is Roger's default foot position when he is aggressively going to make a move on the ball. But observe what has happened to Roger's lower body in the last four frames. After the foot has met the ground Roger is going to transfer his weight to his front foot and this is done by a rotation of the hips.

This is where the power is generated through the kinetic chain. See how the shoulders are perpendicular to the baseline and his hips are approximately 45 degrees past his shoulders. Still in a semi-sitting position (where you are standing straight up at this point) Roger is in a very powerful position to deliver the payload with this rotation of his upper body. This all happens very quickly now. In two frames it will all be over. From frame 25 to frame 26 his shoulders have fully rotated so that they are now in line with his hips but the racquet has not really moved all that much. But in one single frame the racquet comes screaming through with all kinds of head speed as Roger's shoulders now are parallel with the baseline yet his head has not moved at all. He is swinging in a barrel. No forwards shifting at all. He is squarely behind the ball.

One more frame and the racquet passes over to the other side of his body and the motion is for all intents and purposes over although the residual momentum carries the racquet all the way around his body. But notice that front foot is still on the ground and the head is just beginning to lift to watch the result of his shot.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/index.html?dir=rf_forehand/RF_FH_center&stroke=RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mp4&new=

So here's the thing rthodges...what does this have to do with you? Tennis is a game of repetitive motions that are used on a moving target. So to go into each shot with as little deviation as possible increases your chances of playing aggressively.

In your case your default foot position is way to the left of you which prematurely places all of your weight to your left instead of behind the ball where it should be. At least it appears that Roger Federer thinks so. Roger and all baseball batters as well as all golfers. Your default foot position should be with the back foot big toe in line with the front foot instep. Butt back...head forwards. Strings to the wall...step to the ball. Semi-sitting position.

So mull that over a bit and go out and hit some balls using this footwork. It's probably going to take some getting used to as you do not use the left side of your body in the manner that Roger Federer does.

I think that by using the medicine ball with this footwork you will find that you get more mass behind the ball than if you try to throw it using your footwork. Try throwing it with your footwork. It is going to be all arms and it is going to be pretty tough getting any mustard on it. But if you use the type of body rotation that Roger uses you are going to have much more muscle on the ball.

If you look at where Roger is making contact with the ball you can see that his sternum is basically pointed directly at the ball whereas it appears to me that you have rotated quite aways past that point when you are making contact.

One drill that I use with a student that is way over rotating as you do is train them to hit a two handed forehand. The grip of the left hand is only the forefinger and the thumb on the bottom of the racquet. Everything else in the stroke stays the same. By doing this the left hand side is going to be fully engaged throughout the whole swing. It is going to coordinate the backswing as your range of motion is limited by the left hand. The backswing is going to be more easily accomplished with using the body turn with both hands on the racquet because both hands are attached to both shoulders. Now you are taking the racquet back with the shoulders and not just with your right hand. By doing this you engage your entire body in the swing and not just swatting at it with your right hand.

I notice in your first video that you were very inconsistent hitting balls that were more or less spoon fed. You body was not fully engaged in the swing. But somehow in the next set you seemed to be more engaged. Work on this engagement on some of the spoon feeds and then you want to work on moving to the ball. I like your ball machine practice and much can be accomplished with this kind of practice. Particularly when trying to introduce new concepts to your swing.

Take a cone and move it five feet to the left of where the ball is going to be struck. After ever ball move around the cone and try to get those feet placed in as exact a position and physically possible. Now move the cone to the right of the ball and practice moving around it from this direction. More on this when I discuss the music video with you.

This might seem to be a bit complicated but it is actually as simple as it gets. At least in terms of forehands. Roger's forehand being as efficient as any out there. Economy of motion. I like how you mention being aggressive with your forehand and wanting to take control with it. I like the fact that you mention that you would like to play all court tennis and this implies that you will not hesitate to go forwards on a short ball at every opportunity. You cannot play like that from an open position as your default footwork. Of course you are going to be playing from an open position much of the time and I will discuss this further as well.

Any questions?

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ront1.mp4&new=

As I mentioned I really like that in your goals you expressed the image of playing aggressively and playing an all court game. This is what I advocate as a tennis coach/teacher. Roger Federer is the only player on the professional tour that plays anything that resembles what I call the classic all-court game. Here is a perfect example of a forehand that he has run around his backhand to drive and follow to the net. Let's look at some of the details in this stroke. It's fascinating display of the Roger Federer technique and a perfect example of what I call the repetitive motion he will try to accomplish perfectly without deviating from the template. Or rather since the conditions do not allow a perfect setup he more or less must do it on the run. Let's see how he accomplishes this...moving to his left. Remember how the feet, shoulders, racquet and hips all are in the same plane to begin the swing.

It appears that Roger has stroked a forehand and he immediately is anticipating a ball that he is going to have to move to his left for. It appears that right around frame 16 he realizes that it is going to be a forehand that he is going to have to move to his left for. Notice in frame 23 he has made his initial move to turn to his right for the ball. The racquet hand is around waist high as he makes the turn. In four frames time at around frame 27 he is basically in "get in position" position. As a consequence of moving to his extreme left he is unable to get his hips in alignment with his shoulders. Or his feet for that matter. rthodges at this point would be bailing out with the left foot and swinging rather wildly from an open stance position. But here is the magic of Roger Federer. He manages to get his strings pointing to the wall just before the ball bounces in front of him. He actually has made an extreme effort to get in position to set his foot down in default position but is not quite able to manage it. So what does he do? He doesn't bail...he sets his foot slight flared to the right of his back foot and watch. He actually swings his back foot into perfect alignment where the back toe is in line with the front instep. His sternum is squarely on the ball. He manages to keep his head in position while making this radical move to his left. This is amazing stuff really. By the time he makes contact he has actually improvised on his repetitive motion and pulled it off without a hitch. The weight is on the front foot and everything is in nearly perfect alignment. This is what you call poetry in motion.

But the kicker is this...he is on his way to the net as he takes the ball early making contact perhaps a meter in front of the baseline. If you want to play true all-court tennis you have to learn to use the footwork default position of Roger to be able to go forwards and attack.

[rthodges]

Oh man, I tried some of those medicine ball drills this morning and it was a game changer! Jolly Roger was right, the ball was landing way left when I started. I made a circuit where I’d get to 10 straight throws from both the forehand and backhand sides and then hit shots doing the same motion until my legs got tired and the form started to break down. I’ve definitely got a lot of work to do to get my base built up!