Interactive Forum: Novak Djokovic Forehand

[jeffreycounts]

Jeff,

I am looking forward to your thoughts/points about Novak's forehand. Poster forehand raised an interesting question about the role of the shoulder in Novak's FH. He said it looked like to him that Novak's FH was driven by his entire body rotation as much as his shoulder. I think this is a good point. It appears to me that players hitting this modern windshild wiper FH really keep a strong, shoulders back, upright posture when they are in their optimal hitting position. I think this encourages getting their torso, or center, behind the FH, rather than a just shoulder driven action. This modern FH hitting posture is something that is not often talked about.

I totally agree with this. Also, Djokovic really seems to drive his shoulders and torso through contact and well afterwards more than other players.

[forehand]

I totally agree with this. Also, Djokovic really seems to drive his shoulders and torso through contact and well afterwards more than other players.

Hmm...

Does this mean that we are seeing another player re-inventing technique in a way unique to him?

I see the extension now, by the way. But It deviates quite a lot from what I used to conceive as extension. His arm is more severely bent at the elbow compared to a lot of the other guys. And I'd say his form of extension is also a product of his body rotation.

This just went from interesting to exciting, me thinks.

[lukman41985]

Hmm...

Does this mean that we are seeing another player re-inventing technique in a way unique to him?

I see the extension now, by the way. But It deviates quite a lot from what I used to conceive as extension. His arm is more severely bent at the elbow compared to a lot of the other guys. And I'd say his form of extension is also a product of his body rotation.

This just went from interesting to exciting, me thinks.

I can sense your excitement because that was one of the most beautifully crafted sentences I've ever read about tennis--no joke.

[forehand]

I can sense your excitement because that was one of the most beautifully crafted sentences I've ever read about tennis--no joke.

Thanks for the kind words, Lukman. Appreciate it.

This thread has gone a bit quiet, and that's a shame.

I take it from your previous post that you are a Nole fan too. I am eagerly awating his first win against Federer. I wouldn't mind waiting till the US Open semis for that.

[crosscourt]

I totally agree with this. Also, Djokovic really seems to drive his shoulders and torso through contact and well afterwards more than other players.

I agree entirely with you. This seems to me to pick up some of the isues from the earlier thread about the value of racket head speed/forearm extension. What Djokovic does is efficiently transfer to the ball the power generated in his rotating body through the support that he creates for the racket in his arm and shoulder. My feeling is that Coria and Safin can do this pretty well too, though others may take issue.

Watching the Federer match against Seppi yesterday I was struck once again by the tendency of Federer's backhand to break down. When it does, there seems to be too much arm movement and not enough body rotation and support in the shot. So to me this is a forehand and backhand issue.

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[EricMatuszewski]

In clips 1 and 3 (both moving to the right) I really get a sense of him "loading" on his right leg.

These clips are great illustrations of how a player uses ground reaction forces to make the ball go.

Seeing him in person (saw him beat Monfils in his breakthru in 05' and video'd his practice with Gonzales in 06'), his forehand didn't really get my attention. What impressed me was his movement, it was like he wasn't trying that hard, but he was getting there early. And then he would be out of points and somehow get right back into them and go on the offense.

But since this is about his forehand, I notice his grip seems to be one of the more western ones out there.

It strikes me as funny. . . since Fed's domination began, moving more eastern was the hot thing to do. Now here's a guy playing well off clay further western.

[jeffreycounts]

Hmm...

Does this mean that we are seeing another player re-inventing technique in a way unique to him?

I see the extension now, by the way. But It deviates quite a lot from what I used to conceive as extension. His arm is more severely bent at the elbow compared to a lot of the other guys. And I'd say his form of extension is also a product of his body rotation.

This just went from interesting to exciting, me thinks.

This has been a great discussion, brought on by AWESOME clips from John, as always. And you guys provide amazing insights and observations, as always.

This discussion has inspired me to write about some of these issues (the incredible pulling motion, the role of the shoulders, etc) in my next article. I will be using the Djokovic videos in the article.

Stay tuned!

Jeff

[forehand]

Looking forward to it Jeff.

I re-read your articles on the forehand in light of my new insights, more on that below.

I found your "spring event" had outstanding instructional value the first time I read it. The part about aligning and supporting the contact springs makes perfect sense.

But in trying it out on court, it felt a little forced, although the results were solid contact I think I was doing something wrong with my elbow. Not fully understanding the mechanics, I was trying to force the internal rotation of the upper arm to align the racquet to the ball.

After re-visiting the articles in light of this thread, I think I've opened a few new doors. Or should we say new doors have appeared.

The analogy to the backhand where the shoulder is described as a hinge helped me to wiev the double bend as a unit that is allowed to swing from the shoulder. The body rotation takes care of the alignment of the racquet to the ball. This makes for a much more natural swing where nothing is forced. Moreover, the butt leading the swing happens as a consequence. Establishing the correct contact point/zone is automatic.

Looking at the two components separately at first, playing with the natural swing of the double bend and then adding the rotation is what really opened my eyes.

I have only done shadow swings so far, I don't get to play till Tuesday. But what can I say, I'm pretty stoked. If I can manage to re-program myself, this should raise my game by a level.

Thanks for the great work!

PS. Any tips on how to de-program the habit of looping too much on the takeback?

[jmhtennis]

apples and oranges

Hi John,
Love your website. What a great tool for any player of any ability. I am fairly new to the game. When you look at any pro player and attempt to swing like they do, unless you are also 6' 3" and 195 lbs, it probably does not help to try to emulate most pros. These guys are tall, fast, and elite. It does not make much sense to emulate a pro forehand if you do not have a similar body structure. Those long arms and long legs have a lot to do with generating the spin and power for big heavy strokes. I have been trying to generate power with a simpler compact move through my shots simply because at 5' 8" and 190 less is probably more.
Another factor to think about is how these players developed. I am sure most of these guys and gals started out with an extreme western grip because they were not always 6 feet tall! As a 10 year old with a racket, lots of topspin and big loopy strokes makes sense, because that is going to win more matches. Then as the players grow in to their 6 foot frames they are stuck with the same grip they learned as a child. It of course does not make any sense to break down a players grip and start over once they begin to achieve wins in the junior level. But once these players "grow up" they have to start making adjustments, because they have extreme grips. My point finally being: When we look at Djokovic we see at 6 footer who has made changes to his follow through and extension through the shot because he is now TALLER longer leaner and stronger. These players that get the entire body into the shot. Leaping off the ground and rotating their torso into the ball are really compensating for that western grip that they developed as children. It is a thing of beauty to watch, but it sure does take a whole lot of timing! If these guys could make their grips a little less extreme, they might be able to drive the ball with plenty of spin like Roger. I think Roger is so great because he exposes that weakness inherent in todays game: players have one grip and one style of play. If you give Roger the same ball with the same amount of spin for 2 1/2 hours eventually he is going find the timing and eat it up.
JMH

[jeffreycounts]

Hi John,
Love your website. What a great tool for any player of any ability. I am fairly new to the game. When you look at any pro player and attempt to swing like they do, unless you are also 6' 3" and 195 lbs, it probably does not help to try to emulate most pros. These guys are tall, fast, and elite.

I'm not sure I agree. Coria is 5'9 152 lbs. Hewitt is 5'11 170 lbs. Agassi 5'11 177lbs. If you watch jr girls playing they can hit the ball incredibly hard.

[johnyandell]

It's an interesting and complex question. What to model or how much to model from the pros?

Having just gotten back from watching the best 600 American juniors in the Easter Bowl, not many if any were fully westernized on their grips. But they face the same problem a player like Djokovic faces--how to play a screaming topspin drive that bounces to shoulder level. So the grips are almost all moderate to extreme semi-westerns.

The problem of the high ball doesn't go away when you are 6' 2" or whatever. Check out the Osmosis forehand article for more on this. The contact points are unbelievably difficult in the pros. But to deal with this type of ball it's not quite as easy as just saying get an eastern grip and step in... This is the real factor more than body type.

Which brings us to the real point I think of your comment--what about your game? In club tennis the more conservative grips and rotations are usually more appropriate for the exact reason that the ball ISN'T usually bouncing over your shoulder.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't understand the torso and hand and arm rotation patterns and use them. But if your contact heights are waist level, then the more extreme grips aren't as well suited to your game.

I think it comes down to this more than body structure. Look at Grosjean--one of the smallest guys with the most extreme forehands. But that goes with the point above--it's appropriate for the balls he has to hit and wants to hit in return. And jeff is correct, I can testify, about the junior girls.

On the question of take back in a previous comment. The key to controlling the loop is simple--don't let your elbow get away from your body and you can't take a huge loop.

[jmhtennis]

I'm not sure I agree. Coria is 5'9 152 lbs. Hewitt is 5'11 170 lbs. Agassi 5'11 177lbs. If you watch jr girls playing they can hit the ball incredibly hard.

Quite right, but Hewitt and Coria are movers more than ball strikers I think. Hewitt cuts off the court with anticipation, while Coria relies more on pure speed. Agassi can bench close to 300lbs. Those who hit the ball hard with slight frames do so because of the less extreme grip and the ability to make contact out in front of the body. Maybe I did not make my point well enough. I think the players with the western grips need much more timing, and a lot more body put into the shot. Someone with a western grip and a 5'9 frame like Coria simply does not put a lot of balls away.

[johnyandell]

JMH,

I think one important thing to remember here is the apples and oranges distinction. If you or I were on the court with Coria, he could put plenty of balls away I assure you--I've watched him hit from 5 feet way and he is quite explosive.

In pro tennis it's more of a question of what type of ball you can deal with with what grip. The problem in saying smaller guys should use classic grips is that the ball bounces over their head. Again a question of contact height.

Those are the oranges. In the real world of club tennis I think it would be hard to go wrong with someone like Tim Henman as a model. Again this has to do with type of ball and height of ball you hit. But as you perceive, the mania is to play like the favorite pro player.

[jmhtennis]

I totally get your point. You are of course correct. I am just bringing up a few things to play devil's advocate. Keep up the wonderful web site.

[crosscourt]

I agree entirely about Coria being explosive if he wants to be -- though I think the brilliance of his game is his ability to work the opponent into a position from which he can hit a winner more on timing and flattening the shot than on extra effort. I also think that the point about power coming from the body is a good one -- but power coming from the body shouldn't be seen as a poor alternative to power from being big and swinging your arm fast, it isn't. I also agree about the way to keep your backswing compact and prevent it from getting too loopy -- keep your elbow in. I see lots of people get into a position to swing forward and then rather than swinging forward decide to put some extra backward motion into their backswing. They are always late on the ball.

cc