Tour Strokes: Andrei Rublev Serve

[johnyandell]

Would love your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Andrei Rublev Serve"

[arturohernandez]

Very informative article on the ways in which the serve can go wrong even at the highest levels. Federer as a platform model is interesting. I noticed a while back that he will take a short step forward when he warms up his serve. Then I noticed that it is part of his serve in general. He kind of lifts his front foot during his windup. It is really subtle but you can see it in this picture that I took of the high speed footage.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...33827-0001.mov

So at some point in Fed's serve development he must have learned to move back and I wonder if this was an exercise to get him to do that. It's kind of like a footprint of how he learned the serve. This is opposite of what a pinpoint does which is to move forward. Again, Fed is a great model but these little quirks show why a serve like Rublev's is built around a shaky concept. It's also why the pinpoint with the added motion is harder to learn correctly. Again, some people do it just right but in general it is more difficult and leads to more problems.

In Rublev's case, the idea that we have to move forward into the ball appears too early and robs him of power.

Maybe an exercise like Fed (where he lifts his front foot) would help him improve.

[doctorhl]

Very informative article on the ways in which the serve can go wrong even at the highest levels. Federer as a platform model is interesting. I noticed a while back that he will take a short step forward when he warms up his serve. Then I noticed that it is part of his serve in general. He kind of lifts his front foot during his windup. It is really subtle but you can see it in this picture that I took of the high speed footage.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...33827-0001.mov

So at some point in Fed's serve development he must have learned to move back and I wonder if this was an exercise to get him to do that. It's kind of like a footprint of how he learned the serve. This is opposite of what a pinpoint does which is to move forward. Again, Fed is a great model but these little quirks show why a serve like Rublev's is built around a shaky concept. It's also why the pinpoint with the added motion is harder to learn correctly. Again, some people do it just right but in general it is more difficult and leads to more problems.

In Rublev's case, the idea that we have to move forward into the ball appears too early and robs him of power.

Maybe an exercise like Fed (where he lifts his front foot) would help him improve.

Great video. Having been a pinpointer for years, that Federer step seems to make it easier, for me at least, to at least attempt a transition to a platform. I wonder how many old schoolers in this forum were able to successfully transition from pinpoint to platform?? It certainly requires different muscle development that makes it problematic for the 60+ group who were raised mostly in pinpoint.

[doctorhl]

As a right handed server transitioning to a platform from a pinpoint stance, I immediately noticed pain relief in my left knee, anecdotally confirming for me, John’s analysis of the contribution of the rear leg in the platform stance.

[arturohernandez]

As a right handed server transitioning to a platform from a pinpoint stance, I immediately noticed pain relief in my left knee, anecdotally confirming for me, John’s analysis of the contribution of the rear leg in the platform stance.

I transitioned many years ago and it took a long time to get the new feeling. The problem was that I could not hit a kick serve with a pinpoint. A pro switched me to platform and this created a whole host of problems in my serve.

I think a transition is possible but it would require lifting the front foot so that there is no way to move the weight forward. Over time it would be possible to learn to hit with a platform as a player learned to move from back to front without an actual step.

Finally, having conquered the platform I was able to hit a better kick serve and a more reliable and replicable first serve.

But it took a long time...

[doctorhl]

Well, maybe now I can get a decent “kick” serve with the platform.

[yandell17]

To John Yandell and all other Helpful Serve Commentators--Missing the fundamentals--Help
John,
You say in the Rublev article that “His internal shoulder rotation and the rotation of his arm and racket in the upward motion [all “ISR–“ ?] so called pronation--is equal to the best servers.” I can see that in the video. You write elsewhere on the site that “The internal rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint is the main source of racket speed. When that continues into the follow through it's an indication of maximizing racket speed.” Post 55 12/15/19. Repeatedly Elliott, Gordon, and the site says this ISR accounts for 40 to 50% of the speed of the serve.

My bad: I just don’t understand. If the drop to the hit is a mostly up motion, how does ISR contribute to an up motion? You can demonstrate ISR with arm held horizontally and/or forearm held at 90 degree angle to arm as Stumpfel demonstrates in his article posted at the site: Internal Shoulder Rotation Key to Serving Power. Just rotate thumb down (internal) and thumb up (external) from the upper arm. So? See all Gordon and Elliott articles making similar suggestions. I am completely lost. I am ready for the biggest aha to come back to me. I can’t understand how this rotation contributes to an upward force generating speed. Legs yes. Forearm extension. Sure. I understand how wrist pronation creates bite at the point of hit, but not speed. How does ISR do this. Help all. I am missing a huge point. Ever grateful.

[BrianGordon]

Rained out today - rare time to surf. ISR is a primary contributor to the FORWARD speed of the racquet head in the final instants prior to contact. It occurs after the arm is fully elevated and the elbow fully extended (in a properly executed motion). Assuming adequate angle between the (straight) arm and racquet ISR will cause the racquet head to move forward.

[yandell17]

Dear Brian,

Thanks for your helpful reply. I know I am in the best hands. I now understand a new plane I should think of this in, but I am still not getting it. Forgive me. Let's assume the hand is freeze framed right before the hit and ISR hasn't happened yet. The racket is still on edge. Well, if the racket instantly spun at 90 degrees before the hit via ISR indeed that would have no effect on the speed of the racket going forward. Indeed, the racket edge is more forward than the flat surface of the racket before ISR. So going from edge to flat surface does not make the racket go forward. Am I right? What am I missing?

However, if you are telling me that for the four milliseconds that the surface of the racket is on the ball the continual rotation inherent in ISR provides a forward vector I might be able to understand that verbally but not picture that yet in my mind's eye. I have studied your amazing articles re ISR but sorry it did not register how pace from forward motion could result from a rotational input. Hopefully I can get there now. Am I closer? Have you ever provided a diagram of ISR. I assume ISR is not an arm wrestle motion. I see a forward vector in rotating the arm down while arm wrestling. I am still in the dark on ISR but now understand it is right before the hit with an extended arm. I am obviously ISR challenged. Help me go forward, pun intended. Thanks.

[BrianGordon]

I think you're missing the angle between the arm and the racquet as the shoulder is internally rotated - here is Fed in a back view at contact - with the angle between the racquet and arm I hope it is clear how ISR will make the racquet move forward.

[yandell17]

Dear Brian,

I am sorry, I am still not getting it. Thanks for your patience. I understand that at the end of the hit that the angle of the racket is hitting slightly down while a powerful swing path is hitting up. I could understand that if the ball is on the left quadrant of the racket face that a continuous counter-clockwise motion of the racket face possibly causes the tip of the racket to go forward or down, but I am just guessing. I doubt that is it. This is a powerful now I understand FORWARD force accounting for 40% of the power when done correctly, and yet I cannot understand what is happening. Thanks for your patience. Is what you are saying true for the kick, topspin, flat, and slice? Does it matter what kind of serve. I understand "feel" analogies like give a "high five" to the back of the ball at contact or throw a ball to home from center field (Jack Groppel). I now understand I must for a righty hit the ball with the racket angled left (but still right of the shoulder?) as in the Fed photo you kindly supplied, but I am still missing the aha. I will try to do it on faith, but if I could understand it, it would help me (and others) a lot.

[BrianGordon]

Try this - the outside to inside (mentioned) is ESR to ISR - high five is the feel analogy for ISR: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...ket-speed.html. You could also give this a shot: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...n_upper_swing/. Sorry, this is all I got.

[yandell17]

Dear Brian,

Your video and the NY Times video based on your work brought me further along, but I still don't understand how the rotation of ISR at the end gives FORWARD speed much less any movement forward even to the racket even considering the angle of attack. I will keep studying the two videos you provided. I don't doubt for the moment what you are saying, and will practice your verbal descriptions, but I just can not visualize the physics of how ISR can be the engine of forward movement of the racket. You have been most gracious with your time and well known expertise.

[johnyandell]

It's an indication that it was happening big time on the way up.

[yandell17]

Dear John,

Many thanks for your further explanation. First, I have been a devoted reader of yours going back to the Lendl McEnroe VHS, and your Visual Tennis book and tapes. I try to incorporate all you say. Thanks! You say it is an indication of what is happening on the way up bigtime. I can understand that.

But Dr. Gordon said the ISR should come into play "AFTER the arm is fully elevated and the elbow fully extended (in a properly executed motion). Assuming adequate angle between the (straight) arm and racquet ISR will cause the racquet head to move forward." That is the precise point which is eluding me and if Dr. Gordon is saying it and you are saying it then I take it as gospel that I am unable to understand something so fundamental. Perhaps there are others at this site similarly situated who would profit immensely if I could visualize what you are both saying. I think I know what to do, ie, high five at contact, try to hit with edge until very last moment, it may be natural, but I cannot understand how this in itself provides FORWARD movement after elbow fully extended and arm full elevated as I try to explain in my prior questions. Thanks for any further helpfulness.