Differences Across the Grip Styles: Hand and Arm Rotation

[lukman41985]

John,
In this section, where you discuss how the pros vary the amount of hand and arm rotation with respect to what type of shot they want to hit, you say "When Guga flattens out his forehand, he can finish over the shoulder like Agassi". Personally, I've found that if I finish higher, over the shoulder, I am able to hit with more topspin and that if I finish lower, around the level of my hip, I am able to hit a flatter ball. In imparting topspin I try to go up the back of the ball, and by going up, I finish higher. In hittng flat, I try to go through the line of the shot at a flatter trajectory, thereby finishing lower. Seeing as that I'm doing things completely opposite to the way that Guga does, what should I be doing? By the way, I use a semi-western forehand grip.

Thanks,
Lukman

[johnyandell]

Yes, with a vertical racket and relatively little hand rotation you are probably right. What I am talking about is when the hand turns over from right to left. I think it's pretty clear in the article, but imagine your hand is the face of the racket. Your fingers point at the side fence with the wrist laid back--as you hit the fingers are moving from pointing at the side fence to pointing at the sky--or even the other side fence. Your hand and arm are rotating from right to left as a unit.

[lukman41985]

Thanks for your quick reply. It would be wonderful to see which way was more efficient at producing topspin, or even which way produced more topspin, using a vertical racquet face to go up the back of the ball and finishing high, or the right to left turning of the hand and arm. By the way, does the turning of the hand and arm increase the chance of injury because it does seem to torque your forearm. That's not to say that finishing high wouldn't increase you chance of injury either--I think that has the chance of stressing out the shoulder.

[johnyandell]

It seems pretty clear that the hand rotation produces more spin--or at least that the players who produce more spin rotate their hand more. That seems to relate to grip--but then you have Federer. Quantifying all that--well we are making some progress on understanding speed and spin--more on spin coming up in the heavy ball section, but it remains a mystery in mnay ways.

[lukman41985]

By turning the hand from right to left, you produce more spin--but what kind of spin? It seems to me that if you were to make the racquet go low to high and then incorporate a right to left turning of the hand, you would generate both topspin and right-to-left side spin. This side spin would be great for angles, but is it really the best thing for hitting deep shots?

[johnyandell]

Good question. But the answer isn't really known or easy to determine. Could be that there is some significant sidespin component that varies in proportion to the windshield wiper. The problem is that this is speculation--although we are in the process of doing some more spin studies that will measure type not just amount. Just because the racket is turning over right to left doesn't mean that it is moving very far on that curve in 4 milliseconds. Remember it is also moving up or brushing. And forward. So what is doing what? We don't know with any certainty. In general it SEEMS there is less hand rotation when the players flatten the ball out--particular the inside balls. But they may also have the largest sidespin component!

[richberman]

learning from yandell

I'm an old fart, not very humble, but still hope to learn. I have learned from you John Yandell and I appreciate it. Maybe some time we can discuss David Hall's serve.
Until then,
Thanks for the tutiledge(sp?)
Rich Berman
Rich's Tennis School

[johnyandell]

Ok who is David Hall?

[tennismaverick]

Laid back wrist is really a neutral wrist

I think the wrist position that you and most instructors teach is not really laid back but in an anatomically and medically neutral position. That is it is not laid back nor is it curled forward but is actually straight. The reason I say this is because I broke my thumb badly many years ago and I had to get a cast almost up to my elbow. When the doctor was setting the cast he told me to put my wrist in a neutral or straight position. So I made the back of my wrist straight. That is the back of my hand and forearm was straight. The doctor sternly corrected me and positioned my wrist so the palm side of my wrist was straight with my forearm. This is the position you show and describe in your pictures if I am not mistaken. If I hit the ball with my wrist in this position the racquet face is vertical at impact. If I put my wrist further back then this neutral position it stresses the muscles and angles the racquet face slightly down at impact. If I curl my hand in slightly from this neutral position it again stresses the muscles and causes the racquet face to angle upward slightly. So hitting the ball in what is anatomically a neutral position causes the racquet face to be vertical at impact and requires the least amount of muscular strength. For a long time I was straining my wrist so it was laid back almost as far as it would go. When I made the correction to the neutral position my forehand immediately improved and I had much more accuracy. In fact, my entire stroke changed slightly. It was obvious to me that I was even swinging a little different yet I don't think other people noticed anything except that all of a sudden I was winning many more matches. This neutral position might not create a vertical racquet face for all people so some people would have to alter how laid back or curled in their wrist is to make the racquet face vertical at impact. This has a huge effect on someone’s swing and I don't think tennis instructors give it enough attention. Does this make sense?

[lukman41985]

gbailis,
I agree with your assessment as well. Forcing the lay back position will tigthen the muscles of your arm, which could lead to injury, and definitely slows down swing speed. Muscles work fastest when they are relaxed. The neutral, shake hands wrist position is much better in my view. But, the notion of the laid-back wrist is an effective image for players who snap their wrists forward.

[CrazyLefty]

Wrist EXTENSION at contact

This topic should not even need to be discussed. The wrist position at contact in the forehand is almost always in extension. In this agassi pic the wrist angle looks to be about 45 degrees extended even after contact. By no means is this a forced position but at contact the wrist is extended in almost all pro forehands. John Yandell has discussed this and backed it up with high speed video. Let's not beat the poor horse discussing the obvious.

[tennismaverick]

Misleading

I think you missed my point. I am assuming by wrist extension you mean the same thing as a laid back wrist. I am not arguing that this position is what most, if not all, pro tennis players have at contact with the ball. My point is that how it is described is wrong and misleading. Since, this site proposes to be scientific in its analysis of tennis then it should describe things accurately. To the laymen a laid back wrist means to bend your wrist backwards in the direction opposite of your palm. But I don’t think this is accurate from looking at the pictures on this website and other places. I think the wrist looks like it is bent backwards to the laymen but it is really in a neutral position. If it is bent backwards at all it is not to the degree that tennis instructors describe it. If you tell a bunch of beginning tennis students to assume a laid back wrist position I would bet most of them will bend their wrist back too far. Also, describing it this way is not anatomically correct.

If you do a search on the net for a neutral wrist position you will find that even some experts disagree on what that means. But overall I think the experts agree the neutral wrist position is what is in the pictures on this hyperlink and described below.

http://www.uhs.berkeley.edu/facstaff/ergonomics/lab/postures.shtml

“To find a good neutral wrist position start by making soft fists with your hands. Gently cock your wrists in, then round them out. Find the middle position between these two extremes. Next cock your wrists down (pinky gets closer to the underside of your forearm) or up (thumb gets closer to your forearm). Find the middle again. Finally locate the middle between these four directions. When the wrist is straight the line of force from the hand can go through the wrist to the arm, shoulders and body. Good alignment will help keep the rest of you in balance rather than tipping forward or rounding your shoulders. It will also allow for the nerve impulses to transmit more freely between the hand and brain.” This is the same wrist position that a boxer uses when punching. If he didn’t use it he would break his wrist as happens quite frequently in street brawls.

This could be why some people never get the “feel” for hitting the ball. Their wrist is bent back to far or curled in too far. This position contributes greatly to carpel tunnel syndrome and might also contribute to tennis elbow. I am only guessing at that but since a non-neutral wrist position puts stress on the carpel bones, nerves and blood vessels and this might radiate up to the elbow. I don’t know if that is true but it would be interesting to test that hypothesis. We know that vibration from the racquet causes tennis elbow but someone’s wrist position might contribute to it as well. Again, I think it is important for tennis instructors and people who are studying the game as objectively as possible, as this website proposes to do, that they describe things accurately.

[CrazyLefty]

Yes, a laid back wrist is synonymous with the anatomical term wrist extension. I don't understand what you are missing in the description of the modern forehand. To me, the articles on this sight are describing the anatomical positions during the pro forehand. What can be misleading about what actually happens or the "truth" which is backed up with video that you can see for yourself? It would be helpful to illustrate your point with pictures from the sight or other pro images.

The fact is that the wrist does “bend backwards” during the foreword swing. There is nothing misleading about this statement because it happens with every stroke. When and how it happens depends on the individual player. Davenport places her wrist in this position during her backswing (see image below). The other way the wrist is placed in extension is by the movement of the shoulder during the foreword swing. When the shoulder segment rotates and the shoulder joint flexes the weight of the racquet causes the wrist to extend if the wrist is relaxed (Newton’s 1st law). This occurs during almost every forehand stroke on the tour. Repeatability is science, and that is what the articles are describing.

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS

Referencing office ergonomics is absolutely ridiculous! Pros are swinging the racquet over 100 miles an hour not typing. Punching someone is much different that using a 27’’ object to propel a ball. Generating force (racquet head speed) requires the performer to create and release joint angles and rotations in the appropriate sequence. This is what coaches are trying to teach. There is not much range of motion in a “neutral” joint position. The only time we see this position is during the backswing or well into the follow-through.

Yes, if you are typing you should use a neutral wrist position, but if you want to hit a good forehand you are sadly mistaken.

By the way tennis elbow is usually caused by poor mechanics of the backhand not the forehand. Also, it is the shock of the racquet that causes tennis elbow not vibration. Please do an internet search before relaying misleading information.

See pictures below of the wrist during the foreword swing, the angles are closer to 90 degrees than neutral (0 +/- 5 degrees)

[johnyandell]

This is an interesting, debated, and critical point in teaching. Different players and human beings have different flexibility, particularly at different ages.

Also, the angle of the wrist lay back will typically increase with the extremity of the grip. Eastern grips will have less lay back and a quicker release out of the laid back position.

I've had emails from people who wanted to argue about the exact angle of wrist and the changes in the wrist angle. Not sure we know enought to resolves this. i know from my work that you can find a comfortable degree of layback combined with the tucked in arm position for just about everybody.

This position stays relatively unchanged on the foreswing until well out into the extension. It should be based on this feeling and the result. Not interested myself in battling over the terminology and definitions for their own sake--their purpose at least on this site should be to lead to helpful info for players.

By the way, the site doesn't "purport" to be scientific. We do purport to be a forum for the presentation of information, some of which (a small percentage relatively) is coming from some of the leading biomechanists in the world in tennis. Even they would probably say that's a "softer" science.

For myself re: the Advanced Tennis articles, I only claim to be making a qualitative analysis of what I see--and what I learn from what other people see.

By the way, great discussion here--I like it and let's all keep talking.

[tennismaverick]

Individual differences

This will be my last comment on this subject. I can see that how much you lay back your wrist will vary between people and grips. This became very apparent to me over the summer when I took two private lessons. One instructor, who was ranked 600 something on the ATP tour in 97, had a neutral wrist position and a low eastern grip. When I asked him about a more laid back wrist position he thought that was counter productive. The other pro, who was a top collegiate player at one time, had a more laid back wrist position and also a low eastern grip, and thought a slightly laid back wrist position was most effective. Both instructors told me to not bend my wrist backward as much as I was, since I was bending it back much further than either one of the pros. This turned out to be good advice. I thought it was funny how such a simple thing could be so controversial.

Regarding my digression to tennis elbow, when I did a search on what a neutral wrist position was, I came up with many websites about repetitive stress disorders, one of which was tennis elbow. The image in the website was to show how similar that neutral wrist position is to an eastern or low eastern professional tennis forehand grip. I don’t profess to be an expert on the subject at all, nor do I think someone needs to be to express their opinion, but just thought someone else might know if there was a connection between the wrist position and tennis elbow. After all, no one would talk about the weather if we all had to be experts on it and research it in order to enjoy discussing it. But since someone suggested I do an internet search on it, I took up the challenge and did find some interesting things. It turns out after all, that over-extending your wrist backwards along with vibration and shock all contribute to tennis elbow regardless if it is the forehand or backhand. I think most people cock their wrist backwards more on the backhand than the forehand and this might be why a one-handed backhand creates more tennis elbow. I don’t know and I won’t research this any further. Tennis elbow is more common in things that have nothing to do with tennis but where people grip things repetitively. Anyhow, here are two links that I thought were interesting and talk about how bending your wrist too far back strains the wrist extensor muscles and contributes to tennis elbow.

http://www.medinfo.co.uk/conditions/tenniselbow.html

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/diseases/tennis_elbow.html

Like tennis these finding might still be controversial but at least this site is helping to clarify controversial topics in tennis or at least give people a venue to express their difference of opinions. Good job.