14 year old Girl...One handed backhand

[arturohernandez]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Rear1.mp4&new=

By clicking 25 times with the right arrow you will see Roger Federer using his shoulder in classic one handed backhand fashion. He is fielding a slice backhand from his opponent which is going to keep the ball down low so he can easily point his should down to get the shoulder to rotate through the shot. Click five more times and you can see how he has used the lowered shoulder to trace the path of the racquet head through the path of the ball.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/index.html?dir=rf_backhand/RF_BH_center&stroke=RFBHCenterNeutralStanceCourtLevelRear2.mp4&new=

This next example is very interesting and explains how some of the complexities of playing the ball when it get a bit higher. This time his opponent has stepped around his backhand and he plays a reverse cross court high up on the Federer backhand. Not being able to get the shoulder lower than the ball while keeping his feet on the ground he plays the backhand while fully rotating his shoulders in his backswing albeit somewhat levelled...but to achieve the desire outcome as he swing through you see actually raise his shoulder through the path of the ball by elevating on his front foot. This ball appears to be around chest high.

Another way to control the height of the incoming ball if it is high to to play it on the rise. By playing a ball on the rise it isn't necessary to swing so hard as you can use the speed of the ball coming up off the court by solidly placing your weight on the front foot after moving forwards to intercept the high bounce.

One more point is that when playing topspin it is fundamentally correct (FC) to play the shot with the racquet head lower than the hand at impact.

It is interesting how Federer does this. In the past, Nadal would take advantage of these balls to destabilize Federer on the high balls. It's hard to be too stable if we have to keep being up on the toes of the front foot.

My son would handle these open stanced. My daughter also jumps sometimes to handle high backhands.

One of my favorite things is to watch Wawrinka plow his very strong torso and legs into high balls.

Something that Federer finds harder to do but he found his own solution.

[arturohernandez]

Her forehand is unusually compact for a girl her age, which is a great starting point.

Her base is terribly narrow, however, which needs addressing, and is easy to do. She needs to plant her feet much further apart and learn to load using her legs. And I suspect the first thing John Yandell would point out would be to get her left arm stretching hard across her body. Get those two things going and she will start to look a different player.

Another point would be her stance. If Roger or Novak were hitting a forehand off a ball that was coming straight at them down the middle of the court, they would be getting to the side of the ball and stepping in, for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me1tzm1nnWk

Juniors tend to use open stances for almost all forehands if you don't watch it. Stepping in should never be neglected. It's a vital component if the ball lands in certain areas of the court.

These are my initial thoughts just watching the clips a handful of times. These elements jumped straight out of the screen at me.

It's interesting how compact her forehand is. It really never breaks down. She doesn't hit the hardest ball but it tends to creep up on you. And she loves players who feed her pace.

I like the idea of getting her feet apart. And yes, coiling is something she needs to work on too.

She tends to stand tall on balls and so I have and will emphasize widening her stance more. Sometimes she will stand super wide and coil lately. It is a bit artificial and she loses the fluidity of movement. But she is slowly understanding that her strength is below not above. She also has long legs which makes her stand higher up.

The hard arm is also something that will help.

Thanks for pointing those things out!

[arturohernandez]

Excuse me for interrupting. One reason that prevents a 14 year old girl or a 65 year old man from hitting a topspin backhand in competition is that there is additional time constraint in hitting the drive as opposed to the slice. Then you have to make the instant judgement as to which is going to be more effective and statistically feasible. With the slice you have just a tad more time as you meet the ball incrementally later than the drive. That little amount of time is huge when the factor of preparation comes into play.

That being said...here is the key to your daughter's one hand topspin backhand improving. Movement. The key is getting the ball in the comfort zone. There is only one point in time and space where everything adds up to perfection which is the equivalent to comfort in pulling off a shot...consistently.

With better movement she will gain that split second that she needs to prepare and she requires a much bigger shoulder turn to take advantage of the physical advantage of hitting one handed. On the drive the shoulder begins pointing down at the ball and driving up into the ball so the strings are going from low to high. Conversely on the slice (drive slice) the shoulder is pointed slightly above the ball and drives down on the ball to create backspin...or slice. The shoulder is the key body part in this swing and the ability to get into position is the key to driving the ball.

It doesn't appear to me that she is adequately prepared to setup to drive the backhand. I would backup a bit on the feeding and give her the ball in the sweet spot...that one point in time and space so she can get the feel of pointing that shoulder at the ball and turning her shoulders more. At the same time why not do some mobility and agility training with every session. I know myself if I had devoted more training in this regard it would have paid handsome dividends in the future. Not being naturally quick is one thing...but it can be improved with hard work. There is nothing easy about this aspect of improving an athletes performance.
...
At this point other players will bully her on the backhand but she is learning a valuable lesson in how to play defence and eventually some tactical offence with the slice.

She just lost a tournament to a very good 13 year old. The main strategy was to hit topspin shots at her backhand. My daughter will tend to slice these back but this girl would just run around and hit a topspin shot to the open court.

She was bullied and she lost 6-3, 6-2.

I agree that movement and footwork are the key here. And I wonder if just working on her backhand would help her entire game.

It would improve her footwork and pointing her shoulder and coiling on her backhand might transfer to her forehand.

Thanks for the tips Stotty and donbudge!

[don_budge]

She just lost a tournament to a very good 13 year old. The main strategy was to hit topspin shots at her backhand. My daughter will tend to slice these back but this girl would just run around and hit a topspin shot to the open court.

She was bullied and she lost 6-3, 6-2.

I agree that movement and footwork are the key here. And I wonder if just working on her backhand would help her entire game.

It would improve her footwork and pointing her shoulder and coiling on her backhand might transfer to her forehand.

Thanks for the tips Stotty and donbudge!

At the age of fourteen, when I entered my first sanctioned tournament back around 1969 or so I drew the first seed in the first round and lost 6-0, 6-1. He came over the net and accused me of cheating when I won the only game that I did. He had all of his buddies around him egging him on. They had a great time with me that day. Imagine...first day on the job and to receive such a greeting. Arturo...it wasn't the first time that happened to me or was it going to be the last. There weren't too many Navarro's in my neck of the woods in those days. The Aztec looks gave other license to bully. The whole works. It helped to shape me in to the man I am today. I know the score.

You are correct in your movement and footwork assessment and you wonder about focusing on the backhand. Interesting question. Here is the answer. Focus on her athleticism. The strokes themselves? Actually quite good and workable. If she had the necessary "quickness" behind them. You have to get your feet in position number one. One of the more interesting characters that has passed through the forum here is hockeyscout and his theory of building an athlete. He put his daughter through a rigorous period of developing different part of her body to get all the parts to work as a whole. I haven't seen the product much lately but I believe that if he has followed through on his program that he is reaping significant rewards right about now. She is probably 12 or 13 now and I expect that he will start to actually emphasis the tennis aspect even more now. First things first and you have to build the motor...the engine that is going to power the machine.

These next couple of years will be crucial in regard to her being an athlete. When I was that fourteen year old I was painfully slow compared to my opponent. He had been training in the best tennis program for his entire life. He had quickness. Most importantly...he was aggressive. So aggressive that he came over the net to let me know who was boss. I was quite shocked and intimidated of course. Being my first tournament. But I got over it as I have gotten over every single attempt for other to bully me. At the age of eighteen I was playing number one singles at my community college and we played his university in a dual match and I beat him straight sets on his home court. He was undefeated at number one singles and I can imagine that I shocked him. Pay back is a bitch. That goes for any antagonist. You leave yourself open.

So it's a long road from fourteen with a novice one handed backhand to being accomplished at eighteen. Four trips around the sun is a long distance. Make the most of it and lay the foundation and that is in the feet. Work those cones. Practice sessions must be intense. One of the guys at the university that I eventually went to said to me that I worked the hardest of any of the players on the team. Well I did...after all I wasn't entering a race to finish second. I played number one by the virtue of my hard work. Not by any coincidence or chance.

Work on the quickness and the intensity. One story from the Apache Indian culture. The parents would "give" their child to another member of the tribe to discipline or work the child into being an adult. That person had license to scare the shit out of the young one or whatever it took to face the hardship reality of their life. It is tough on a parent to be as tough as it takes on their own child...it's a conflict of interest.

Just food for thought Arturo. There are no definitive answers in life or training tennis players. Everyone is different so it often takes a different approach. Chemistry is everything...I was also very, very fortunate to meet a couple of coaches that were instrumental in my life and growing up. My high school coach used to call me Cochise and my real mentor at the community college called me Pancho. I loved both those guys to this very day. They were like fathers to me.

You have got to be aggressive. If you can't get that across to her find someone that can.

[arturohernandez]

You are correct in your movement and footwork assessment and you wonder about focusing on the backhand. Interesting question. Here is the answer. Focus on her athleticism. The strokes themselves? Actually quite good and workable. If she had the necessary "quickness" behind them. You have to get your feet in position number one. One of the more interesting characters that has passed through the forum here is hockeyscout and his theory of building an athlete. He put his daughter through a rigorous period of developing different part of her body to get all the parts to work as a whole. I haven't seen the product much lately but I believe that if he has followed through on his program that he is reaping significant rewards right about now. She is probably 12 or 13 now and I expect that he will start to actually emphasis the tennis aspect even more now. First things first and you have to build the motor...the engine that is going to power the machine.

Work on the quickness and the intensity. One story from the Apache Indian culture. The parents would "give" their child to another member of the tribe to discipline or work the child into being an adult. That person had license to scare the shit out of the young one or whatever it took to face the hardship reality of their life. It is tough on a parent to be as tough as it takes on their own child...it's a conflict of interest.

Just food for thought Arturo. There are no definitive answers in life or training tennis players. Everyone is different so it often takes a different approach. Chemistry is everything...I was also very, very fortunate to meet a couple of coaches that were instrumental in my life and growing up. My high school coach used to call me Cochise and my real mentor at the community college called me Pancho. I loved both those guys to this very day. They were like fathers to me.

You have got to be aggressive. If you can't get that across to her find someone that can.

Yes, athleticism is key. But I also wonder if it has something to do with what the Spanish method focuses on. Lewitt talks a lot about how the Spanish connect the eyes and the feet. My sense is that she can improve her quickness but also improve her recognition of the ball.

Sometimes her slowness is in anticipation. She doesn't recognize the ball quickly enough.

I played a lot of other ball sports before I played tennis. Baseball in particular helped with a lot of general skills that transfer to tennis.

I was never fast. At 17, my uncles in Mexico thought I needed to improve my quickness. I was always slow. Not average, slow. I spent a summer there being hounded to speed up.

Now more than three decades later everyone says I am very quick. They wonder how I get to so many balls.

I am definitely not faster than I was at 17. A lot of it is ball recognition. Knowing what is coming before it is even coming.

So I will focus on movement but also on coordinating it with ball recognition.

How else is it that all these guys over 30 can still hang with the 20 year olds?

Speed drops off quickly into the 30's. It must be experience and recognition that allows them to compensate for diminishing speed.

Experience teaches us that what happens at 14 may be temporary.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[don_budge]

I was never fast. At 17, my uncles in Mexico thought I needed to improve my quickness. I was always slow. Not average, slow. I spent a summer there being hounded to speed up.

Yep...I can just hear it, "Get the lead out Arturo!!!" Sometimes all you need is to hear this. Some will respond to it. Whatever it takes. If the daughter reinvents herself as a swift gazelle from a plodding armadillo it will make all the difference. Armadillo being a joke of course. Your daughter is a beautiful young lady and her strokes are rather elegant. In order to play elegantly she will need to become that panther...mountain lioness. Puma comes to mind. Invoke the animal spirits. That ball is really a mouse...pounce on it! Buena suerta y vaya con dios!

[doctorhl]

Yes, athleticism is key. But I also wonder if it has something to do with what the Spanish method focuses on. Lewitt talks a lot about how the Spanish connect the eyes and the feet. My sense is that she can improve her quickness but also improve her recognition of the ball.

Sometimes her slowness is in anticipation. She doesn't recognize the ball quickly enough.

I played a lot of other ball sports before I played tennis. Baseball in particular helped with a lot of general skills that transfer to tennis.

I was never fast. At 17, my uncles in Mexico thought I needed to improve my quickness. I was always slow. Not average, slow. I spent a summer there being hounded to speed up.

Now more than three decades later everyone says I am very quick. They wonder how I get to so many balls.

I am definitely not faster than I was at 17. A lot of it is ball recognition. Knowing what is coming before it is even coming.

So I will focus on movement but also on coordinating it with ball recognition.

How else is it that all these guys over 30 can still hang with the 20 year olds?

Speed drops off quickly into the 30's. It must be experience and recognition that allows them to compensate for diminishing speed.

Experience teaches us that what happens at 14 may be temporary.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Art:
Experience in developing a “read” certainly improves anticipation. But I found that I was lacking a movement timing that hindered my anticipation. Try putting the camera behind her at an angle that captures her feet and the opponent’s windup and ball contact at the same time. I improved my anticipation when I realized( through slow motion video), that I was deweighting my split step too late. Many juniors split step when their opponent contacts the ball. Then they deweight( extend the legs) and it is too late for the deweight to be an advantage. I spent a lot of time trying to get a quicker first step by running 10 yard sprints until I realized that I needed to correct this movement. The movement is even more critical in service returns and cutting off volleys. You may have subconsciously figured out this movement along with recognizing opponent body cues to improve your anticipation.
1.Can anyone supply a pro video clip with this camera angle?
2.Can anyone supply an amateur clip at this angle where the player deweights too late( or not at all)?
3. Has anyone else ever observed this, and if so, do you think it is relevant to improving anticipation?
4. If yes to #3, can you share any drills?
I will check John’s archives along with YouTube to see if I can footage using this camera angle.

[arturohernandez]

Art:
Experience in developing a “read” certainly improves anticipation. But I found that I was lacking a movement timing that hindered my anticipation. Try putting the camera behind her at an angle that captures her feet and the opponent’s windup and ball contact at the same time. I improved my anticipation when I realized( through slow motion video), that I was deweighting my split step too late. Many juniors split step when their opponent contacts the ball. Then they deweight( extend the legs) and it is too late for the deweight to be an advantage. I spent a lot of time trying to get a quicker first step by running 10 yard sprints until I realized that I needed to correct this movement. The movement is even more critical in service returns and cutting off volleys. You may have subconsciously figured out this movement along with recognizing opponent body cues to improve your anticipation.
1.Can anyone supply a pro video clip with this camera angle?
2.Can anyone supply an amateur clip at this angle where the player deweights too late( or not at all)?
3. Has anyone else ever observed this, and if so, do you think it is relevant to improving anticipation?
4. If yes to #3, can you share any drills?
I will check John’s archives along with YouTube to see if I can footage using this camera angle.

Great points. Tim Mayotte has this article on the split step. I am not sure if you saw it but he goes into detailed analysis of what the split step is and is not. He has some videos of Federer and Djokovic which are very nice.

Not sure if you have seen this so I am pasting the link in case you haven't.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/famouscoach/tim_mayotte/the_split_step_ready_position/

Lewit also talks a lot about using a kind of hop like the Spanish do. This has the effect of helping on slippery surfaces such as clay but it also creates a rhythm that I think eventually leads a player to naturally hop before the shot. My guess is that if a player hops as a junior then they will start to naturally learn to time the split optimally.

If you look at the link below in the Spanish drilling section you can see the rhythmic approach that I think in principle helps with split steps.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_performance/chris_lewit/two_coaches_training_styles/

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts.

Arturo

[doctorhl]

Thanks Art, I hadn’t seen that and definitely will check it out. Split step was probably the wrong word. I was referring to “when” players rose on their toes to deweight as opponent is about to make contact. I forgot that youtube does not have frame advance and you can only see this with single frame advance and shooting at least 200 fps to catch it.

[doctorhl]

While I got your attention: when I changed from old school one handed backhanded slice to a Federer knife slice, I noticed that I started to get the ball to “skid” and stay low, making it much more effective. But I haven’t found any slow motion video that captures that “skid”. It’s not easy to film. Have you noticed this “skid” and have you seen it captured on film anywhere?

[doctorhl]

Great points. Tim Mayotte has this article on the split step. I am not sure if you saw it but he goes into detailed analysis of what the split step is and is not. He has some videos of Federer and Djokovic which are very nice.

Not sure if you have seen this so I am pasting the link in case you haven't.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/famouscoach/tim_mayotte/the_split_step_ready_position/

Lewit also talks a lot about using a kind of hop like the Spanish do. This has the effect of helping on slippery surfaces such as clay but it also creates a rhythm that I think eventually leads a player to naturally hop before the shot. My guess is that if a player hops as a junior then they will start to naturally learn to time the split optimally.

If you look at the link below in the Spanish drilling section you can see the rhythmic approach that I think in principle helps with split steps.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_performance/chris_lewit/two_coaches_training_styles/

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts.

Arturo

Thanks Art. The explanation in Mayotte’s section on split step timing was what I was looking for. I think many juniors rise up on their toes too late by waiting for opponent ball contact. Poor timing of rising on toes really shows up on service returns and cutting off volleys st net in doubles. Still looking for slow motion ground level video that captures both players without one player or the net obstructing the view.

[arturohernandez]

Thanks Art. The explanation in Mayotte’s section on split step timing was what I was looking for. I think many juniors rise up on their toes too late by waiting for opponent ball contact. Poor timing of rising on toes really shows up on service returns and cutting off volleys st net in doubles. Still looking for slow motion ground level video that captures both players without one player or the net obstructing the view.

I can see how rising up late would basically mean that one is not able to change directions at the right time. I know that some pros do a lot of hand fed or close in feeding with a racket tap to make the players respond more quickly. It would seem to me that volleying at the net and making the player adjust quickly would also help. When the pro volleys and the player has to hit successive groundstrokes, there is very little time to adjust. So the adjustments have to come quickly. My guess is that Lewit, Mayotte and other coaches probably work on quick reactions to get the feet moving. But that is my guess.

Just one minor note, the nickname Art is like nails on a chalkboard for me. I realize you had no ill intent but just figured I would let you know the effect.

[doctorhl]

Apologies Arturo! Thanks for the response. I remember serving and then moving in toward the net to volley. I went into a split step( with weight on my heels) about the time the opponent struck the ball. It was too late to rise up to deweight. I had to train myself to split step earlier so that I could rise up at the beginning of the opponent’s forward swing. By the time my brain activated my rise up, the ball had been contacted and I was deweighted enough to follow ball direction and go to my left or right. I spent years thinking I was too slow to get off my heels when the problem was a timing of the rise. Proper drills would have most likely corrected this for me without having to go through all of that self video analysis.

[arturohernandez]

Thanks, no apology necessary. As I said I never took at as ill intent.

I also think cross-training would have helped you. I think about playing sports informally. The split step would be necessary for trying to guard basketball players as they move or soccer players changing directions. The same for fielding balls. You are almost obligated to jump at the right time and to adjust. With enough variety and reps in these different sports we eventually adapt to tennis.

We also learn to read the body rather than just the racket. So a former basketball or soccer player is reacting before the ball is hit because in basketball, soccer and even in baseball the ball is connected to the body. So we read the body and not the racket.

I am kind of rambling here but I think it fits in with what you are saying. But I am thinking that we need to read the body and not the racket or the hit. If we split with our opponent's body then we would split step before the ball is hit.

I also remember reading something on serving and volleying and how the footwork patterns were different relative to the baseline. They seem to take longer to develop. So in today's fast paced world it is not taught the way it was before.

Sampras in particular noted how different it was. And I cannot keep but thinking how Sampras seemed to anticipate volleys so well and that today people get passed left and right. I know he did not play with the same string technology.

Federer is close but not nearly as good as Sampras was. It must have been playing against an octopus who had all his tentacles over the entire court.

[doctorhl]

Agree on Sampras ability. He could anticipate volley direction without equal. I also agree on “body read”. There were some research studies years ago where coaches were shown a number of videos in different parts of the opponent’s body were masked on the video just before contact on a groundstroke and serves. They were asked to predict ball direction. The advanced coaches looked at different body parts( usually shoulders and hips)than the beginning coaches. I played a lot of basketball and was good defensively. But for some reason I could not transition it to the tennis court for anticipating volleys. I had no problem with groundstrokes or service returns. Now that you mention it, I think my difficulty was the run forward, then split and anticipate direction. Most likely, experience in forward running to split and change of direction in soccer would have helped. In basketball, the offense was always coming to me for split and direction change, not me running toward them. You just set off a flashback in my mind to little league baseball and my inability to get the jump on fly ball direction in the outfield. I had a quick first step, but I just had no clue on focusing on batter body clues!! It would be interesting to know pro tennis players’ prior soccer( excuse me - - - football) experience.