14 year old Girl...One handed backhand

[don_budge]

For Arturo and Stotty.

[don_budge]

I have been coaching one of the best U12 players in the country (UK) for the last two years. Try as I might, I cannot get her to do an ATP forehand. I can get her to shave down the backswing and even tap into a bit of SCC, but when she comes back three days later she's gone back to square one; a big backswing and no SCC. Female players just seem to find it much harder to learn an ATP forehand than boys. BG says he can get the girls to do it as well as the boys at his academy, so long as they buy into the concept and approach it with discipline.

There must be 10,000 coaches in the world who for the past 10 years have been trying to teach girls an ATP forehand, and the vast majority of those coaches - and we can use the WTA tour as evidence - are failing. Why is that? What is it about the mechanics that the female players find so difficult learn and embed? The first possible reason that springs to mind is physical strength. But then BG points out no strength is needed and that very young children can learn to do it. So it remains a puzzling mystery it seems.

[don_budge]

I think it might have to do with strength and the perception (or reality?) that a harder ball is better. Maybe there is a bigger payoff for a girl than a boy to hit a big ball using a big swing.

I think boys are probably able to generate pace more easily and so they can shorten their swing at a younger age and still produce a ball with pace. In fact, I remember that for my three kids, two girls and one boy, the girls never had the issue of overhitting the ball. My son could pop a ball over the fence on the other side of the court at age 8.

Also, a boys ball may come harder at a younger age so a long swing could be a liability. There is just less time to wind up and tee off on a ball.

My son had to learn to hit topspin pretty young and he was never on the college tennis track.

Girls can do it too. But the payoff comes much later.

I think the same thing tends to happen with the serve. Flatter, harder has a payoff for girls but boys cannot keep it in the box.

I do resonate with the throwing motion. Of my two daughters, my youngest can throw a ball more naturally. Her serve and forehand both have more spin. And her forehand is pretty compact.

I subscribed to the Macci/Gordon mantra and think the power should come from a compact stroke with greater acceleration and not from elongating the swing. The longer swings tend to break down and my daughter's forehand is not the biggest but she can stand toe to toe with older girls exchanging forehands. The girls with the longer swings eventually cannot adjust their timing and miss long or into the net.

They do hit more winners but as we know that is only 30% of the game. So if a girl hits 10% more winners than my daughter but makes 15% more errors then the math is in her favor.

I have seen girls that had huge forehands against other players suddenly not be able to generate that kind of power against my daughter on the forehand side.

When she was younger it was not the biggest forehand and it still is not. But now at 14 I can start to see how it is improving quickly and even becoming a weapon. Also, because it is compact we do not have to spend hours drilling all the different types of balls. So it will grow into a better forehand as she gets older and is readily adjustable to different balls.

So, my guess is that if my goal is to win before age 12 and I am a girl, I will try to hit the biggest ball and be rewarded. This becomes very engrained and then when I get older it is just very difficult to adjust the biomechanics. And what incentive does a girl have to shorten the swing if the long one produces success?

To do so would require a coach and the player to buy in to the notion that the more efficient compact stroke will be better in the long run.

And today the long run is 6 months from now, not 8 years.

The days of switching strokes or thinking about having the best game at 20 years of age is a luxury that most players hoping to make it cannot afford.

[don_budge]

I have been coaching one of the best U12 players in the country (UK) for the last two years. Try as I might, I cannot get her to do an ATP forehand. I can get her to shave down the backswing and even tap into a bit of SCC, but when she comes back three days later she's gone back to square one; a big backswing and no SCC. Female players just seem to find it much harder to learn an ATP forehand than boys. BG says he can get the girls to do it as well as the boys at his academy, so long as they buy into the concept and approach it with discipline.

There must be 10,000 coaches in the world who for the past 10 years have been trying to teach girls an ATP forehand, and the vast majority of those coaches - and we can use the WTA tour as evidence - are failing. Why is that? What is it about the mechanics that the female players find so difficult learn and embed? The first possible reason that springs to mind is physical strength. But then BG points out no strength is needed and that very young children can learn to do it. So it remains a puzzling mystery it seems.

I had one more possible reason for the inability to change. My daughter has a really nice topspin one handed backhand. But somehow everyone has gotten it in her head that it is a problem. Girls should not hit with one hand. They are too weak. Blah, blah, blah.

She has practices where she will hit one hundred percent topspin backhands. Then she gets in a match and it is all slice. It's a nice slice but her topspin disappears.

When I ask her why she says that matches are not the same as practice.

So for her match play is associated with a slice backhand.

I think we fall back to what is comfortable for us. The big backswing is comfortable for her.

You could try classical conditioning or some other unconscious way to get her to change. My sense is that there has to be some kind of associative trigger that will change a behavior.

Unconscious or procedural learning is very powerful. To overcome it requires us to create some cue that will elicit the new shot.

For example, have her hold her racket longer or some physical cue that she associates with the new stroke. She needs to forget the old forehand and learn the new one.

Doing it consciously is very difficult. You are battling unconscious learning with conscious learning.

It's an unfair battle, unconscious learning will win every time.

[don_budge]

If she can hit a topspin backhand in practice but hasn't the confidence in matches, then it is likely the backhand is flawed. Players will never use a shots in matches they are not fully confident in. Good coaching is rooted in developing shots that students can be fully confident in so they will use them in matches - it's the acid test.

[don_budge]

If she can hit a topspin backhand in practice but hasn't the confidence in matches, then it is likely the backhand is flawed. Players will never use a shots in matches they are not fully confident in. Good coaching is rooted in developing shots that students can be fully confident in so they will use them in matches - it's the acid test.

It is still developing is how I would say it. Here is a video from last Thursday.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Vj...4zoHX7oqBgik4T

[don_budge]

Thanks. Three backhands all fed in so she is having to play the ball at difficult heights; one around chest height, one above the shoulder line, and one quite a bit above the waist. But even on the one above waist height she doesn't lower the racket head to get underneath the ball.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?JustineHeninHardenneBackhand.mov

I prefer Justine's style of take back over the more vertical racket shaft of your daughter. Having the racket vertical like that can create timing issues because it is just so difficult to do. The backswing kind of has to wrap round the body and many players who adopt this kind of backswing find they are often late and/or cannot create enough time to lower the racket head before impact with the ball.

It's tough to make a decent judgement off watching just three backhands but that's the way it's looking at the moment.

The pro who is working with her wants her to cradle the racket a bit more and not keep it so upright. She just started working on it so it may take some time for her to get the hang of it.

But, yes, I like Henin's take back as it is much simpler. I myself stumbled on this after a forehand lesson of all things. I transferred the feel of keeping my racket a bit away from my body on the forehand take back to my backhand.

So my forehand lesson yielded double benefits. Next time I am out with her I will remind her of what the pro said and even mention your advice as well.

Here are a couple more so that you can take a look at a better contact point.

But I would agree that she needs to come under and over the ball. Maybe the high racket head take back might be making that harder rather than easier.

I appreciate any suggestions for exercises you might have.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DaV...ew?usp=sharing

[don_budge]

The pro who is working with her wants her to cradle the racket a bit more and not keep it so upright. She just started working on it so it may take some time for her to get the hang of it.

But, yes, I like Henin's take back as it is much simpler. I myself stumbled on this after a forehand lesson of all things. I transferred the feel of keeping my racket a bit away from my body on the forehand take back to my backhand.

So my forehand lesson yielded double benefits. Next time I am out with her I will remind her of what the pro said and even mention your advice as well.

Here are a couple more so that you can take a look at a better contact point.

But I would agree that she needs to come under and over the ball. Maybe the high racket head take back might be making that harder rather than easier.

I appreciate any suggestions for exercises you might have.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DaV...ew?usp=sharing

We are probably clogging up Coco's thread here so you might want to post a separate thread for daughter.

Thanks for the further two backhands you posted. I always tell kids 'get the ball where you want it and not where it wants you'. If a child is learning to topspin a backhand, it makes sense to feed balls so they can contact the ball below waist height because it will then be easier for them to learn the mechanics of getting under the ball. Swiftly after that, students should be given more random feeds and encouraged to read the flight of the ball and to quickly to get in the best position possible. It's a tough ask for juniors to hit shoulder-high ball with topspin. I usually educate kids to slice these.

[don_budge]

Excuse me for interrupting. One reason that prevents a 14 year old girl or a 65 year old man from hitting a topspin backhand in competition is that there is additional time constraint in hitting the drive as opposed to the slice. Then you have to make the instant judgement as to which is going to be more effective and statistically feasible. With the slice you have just a tad more time as you meet the ball incrementally later than the drive. That little amount of time is huge when the factor of preparation comes into play.

That being said...here is the key to your daughter's one hand topspin backhand improving. Movement. The key is getting the ball in the comfort zone. There is only one point in time and space where everything adds up to perfection which is the equivalent to comfort in pulling off a shot...consistently.

With better movement she will gain that split second that she needs to prepare and she requires a much bigger shoulder turn to take advantage of the physical advantage of hitting one handed. On the drive the shoulder begins pointing down at the ball and driving up into the ball so the strings are going from low to high. Conversely on the slice (drive slice) the shoulder is pointed slightly above the ball and drives down on the ball to create backspin...or slice. The shoulder is the key body part in this swing and the ability to get into position is the key to driving the ball.

It doesn't appear to me that she is adequately prepared to setup to drive the backhand. I would backup a bit on the feeding and give her the ball in the sweet spot...that one point in time and space so she can get the feel of pointing that shoulder at the ball and turning her shoulders more. At the same time why not do some mobility and agility training with every session. I know myself if I had devoted more training in this regard it would have paid handsome dividends in the future. Not being naturally quick is one thing...but it can be improved with hard work. There is nothing easy about this aspect of improving an athletes performance.

[don_budge]

One really good thing she did on the high deep ball that you fed her is that she aimed eight feet over the net and drove it deeper in the court. Turn those shoulders ala Federer, Wawrinka, Henin et al.

[don_budge]

It doesn't appear to me that she is adequately prepared to setup to drive the backhand. I would backup a bit on the feeding and give her the ball in the sweet spot...that one point in time and space so she can get the feel of pointing that shoulder at the ball and turning her shoulders more. At the same time why not do some mobility and agility training with every session. I know myself if I had devoted more training in this regard it would have paid handsome dividends in the future. Not being naturally quick is one thing...but it can be improved with hard work. There is nothing easy about this aspect of improving an athletes performance.

Put a cone down about one meter to the left of the middle line and make her go in front of it after every shot. Give her the spoon fed feeds first...twenty balls. Then work the cone...twenty balls. Repeat four times. Rest...then repeat. Until she gets into the groove and get her to hold it. Do not push beyond her endurance level. Quit on a positive note.

Refer to "Muscle Memory" threads.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/index.html?dir=rf_backhand/RF_BH_center&stroke=RFBHCenterNeutralStanceCourtLevelRear1.mp4&new=

By clicking 25 times with the right arrow you will see Roger Federer using his shoulder in classic one handed backhand fashion. He is fielding a slice backhand from his opponent which is going to keep the ball down low so he can easily point his should down to get the shoulder to rotate through the shot. Click five more times and you can see how he has used the lowered shoulder to trace the path of the racquet head through the path of the ball.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/index.html?dir=rf_backhand/RF_BH_center&stroke=RFBHCenterNeutralStanceCourtLevelRear2.mp4&new=

This next example is very interesting and explains how some of the complexities of playing the ball when it get a bit higher. This time his opponent has stepped around his backhand and he plays a reverse cross court high up on the Federer backhand. Not being able to get the shoulder lower than the ball while keeping his feet on the ground he plays the backhand while fully rotating his shoulders in his backswing albeit somewhat levelled...but to achieve the desire outcome as he swing through you see actually raise his shoulder through the path of the ball by elevating on his front foot. This ball appears to be around chest high.

Another way to control the height of the incoming ball if it is high to to play it on the rise. By playing a ball on the rise it isn't necessary to swing so hard as you can use the speed of the ball coming up off the court by solidly placing your weight on the front foot after moving forwards to intercept the high bounce.

One more point is that when playing topspin it is fundamentally correct (FC) to play the shot with the racquet head lower than the hand at impact.

[don_budge]

Great work arturohernandez. The girl is fourteen years old. I can see the product with four years of good developmental training and intelligent practice. You...or rather she will have to have the courage to look ahead. At this point other players will bully her on the backhand but she is learning a valuable lesson in how to play defence and eventually some tactical offence with the slice. The key to drive backhands is getting over the hump to where you can be aggressive and that means taking the ball early. On the rise when necessary. Somebody mentioned that she has to dictate where she plays the ball and not let the ball play you. The opponent play you. She looks to be plenty big and strong at fourteen...she'll be a whole another animal at eighteen. Build on solid fundamentals. A foundation of rock...not shifting sand.

How about a look see on the forehand?

[arturohernandez]

Great work arturohernandez. The girl is fourteen years old. I can see the product with four years of good developmental training and intelligent practice. You...or rather she will have to have the courage to look ahead. At this point other players will bully her on the backhand but she is learning a valuable lesson in how to play defence and eventually some tactical offence with the slice. The key to drive backhands is getting over the hump to where you can be aggressive and that means taking the ball early. On the rise when necessary. Somebody mentioned that she has to dictate where she plays the ball and not let the ball play you. The opponent play you. She looks to be plenty big and strong at fourteen...she'll be a whole another animal at eighteen. Build on solid fundamentals. A foundation of rock...not shifting sand.

How about a look see on the forehand?

I appreciate you copying all the messages over to this thread. I asked John what I should do and he suggested this approach.

Thanks for al the words of encouragement and the suggestions. Yes, the footwork is key. Especially, for someone who just switched to a one hander 3 years ago. It's about 10 years of forehand practice vs. 3 years of 1hbh practice after 7 years of a two hander.

So the switch is not just to one hand but it is learning the one hander and forgetting the two hander. The good thing is that there is no way to switch back.

She has no power on her two hander.

The pro that she is working with in one of the videos has been emphasizing lowering the shoulder (me, too!). I feel like the problem with juniors is the height and weight of the ball and the fact that they cannot quite get ready in time, as you noted.

My son solved it by hitting some of his backhands open stanced at a younger age and then eventually neutral as he got stronger.

Here are three different videos of the forehand.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tDq6KXk-zcW2XG5bvVK90qqdE9bKcOjO

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N7iJGYFrtakwXPfR8oGxXZGeiW7QY7iY

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tDq6KXk-zcW2XG5bvVK90qqdE9bKcOjO

[stotty]

Her forehand is unusually compact for a girl her age, which is a great starting point.

Her base is terribly narrow, however, which needs addressing, and is easy to do. She needs to plant her feet much further apart and learn to load using her legs. And I suspect the first thing John Yandell would point out would be to get her left arm stretching hard across her body. Get those two things going and she will start to look a different player.

Another point would be her stance. If Roger or Novak were hitting a forehand off a ball that was coming straight at them down the middle of the court, they would be getting to the side of the ball and stepping in, for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me1tzm1nnWk

Juniors tend to use open stances for almost all forehands if you don't watch it. Stepping in should never be neglected. It's a vital component if the ball lands in certain areas of the court.

These are my initial thoughts just watching the clips a handful of times. These elements jumped straight out of the screen at me.