Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

[johnyandell]

Racket path is similar. Sampras's toss a little more to left. Stance is a 3/4 Mac. Fed is a 3/4 Sampras.

[glacierguy]

GG,
Not a problem. Sampras probably had the greatest serve of all time. Did you see this series?

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/sampras_serve/sampras_serve_racket_head_speed/sampras_serve_racket_head_speed.html

PS sounds like you are using the site exactly the way we designed it!

Thanks John, yes, I've read that series a few times! Thanks to that article I now have the ball speed to racquet speed ratio of 4/3 stuck in my head. My other takeaway from that article was the powerful acceleration into the contact - Sampras really keeps the work on driving into the contact, there's a tremendous burst of racquet head speed. Even in slow motion you really have to watch closely to see the burst of speed. Looking at my own attempts, the moments before contact look pedestrian, but that's not surprising compared with the master.

[johnyandell]

Well per DB both Sampras and Fed have a similar trophy position a little diff from Mac.

[glacierguy]

Well, I've worked on serve a lot during lockdown, using video and Pocket Radar to see what really works. I feel I've made a few changes. First, I've lowered the toss and eliminated the hanging about in trophy position. Basically I've changed the rhythm and keep the whole motion moving all the time, no pauses. Second, and this was quite a revelation, I'm keeping more separation between the racquet and body during the drop and in the initial upswing. Basically I'm keeping the forearm at a near right angle to the upper arm. What this seems to do is produce maximum racquet head speed when the shoulder internally rotates because the racquet head is as far away from the axis of rotation (along the upper arm) as it's possible to be. It's kind of obvious really, but the first time I managed to do it, the ball really popped. Third, I'm keeping the racquet arm elbow higher in the trophy position - about 90-100 degrees from line of trunk. I don't know why this helps, but it definitely does.

(And I think I've nearly read all the Past Issues now)

[glacierguy]

BTW, the reason I posted the above is not to claim how great my serve is (it isn't), but to share my experience that small changes to a serve action that seemed OK and in many ways already included all the elements that we read about on TennisPlayer can make big differences. The information is there in the serve articles on the site, but sometimes the one gem your particular serve needs is only a sentence or two, and easy to overlook. So keep reading and keep experimenting. Once I get back to competition, I don't think I'll be able to play around as much as I have these last few months.

[don_budge]

BTW, the reason I posted the above is not to claim how great my serve is (it isn't), but to share my experience that small changes to a serve action that seemed OK and in many ways already included all the elements that we read about on TennisPlayer can make big differences. The information is there in the serve articles on the site, but sometimes the one gem your particular serve needs is only a sentence or two, and easy to overlook. So keep reading and keep experimenting. Once I get back to competition, I don't think I'll be able to play around as much as I have these last few months.

Thanks for sharing. One of the more interesting aspects of this forum is sharing personal experiences. Some like to keep it on the straight and narrow and that's fine too. But I am always curious about the process and how others experience it. I think that it is high time for some video glacierguy. Things have been rather slow on the forum lately.

[glacierguy]

Thanks - I agree, a video is required! But in the meantime, and to demonstrate my sad obsession, here is a still in which I was looking at angles... Also that's my lockdown setup, serving down the lawn into a children's football goal.

[don_budge]

Some might refer to it as obsession but I prefer to think of it as "fascination". I get your drift glacierguy. What a great thing to ponder in a lockdown situation. This type of mental activity keeps you from going bonkers. Mental gymnastics. The photo looks as if you are getting all of your ducks in a row...all of your vectors lined up. I have a good feeling about the video from what you've said.

[glacierguy]

don_budge, you are right - I am fascinated by the serve. Here are two videos of my current effort, a real-time and a 1/8th slow motion. It's on my lawn, and I'm simulating a serve from the ad side. My left foot is parallel with the imaginary baseline. The camera is a few feet inside the baseline to capture the separation between racquet and trunk during the drop. This serve was about 95mph on the Pocket Radar (I've been protecting a slight elbow niggle).

[glacierguy]

Here's the slow motion:

[don_budge]

don_budge, you are right - I am fascinated by the serve. Here are two videos of my current effort, a real-time and a 1/8th slow motion. It's on my lawn, and I'm simulating a serve from the ad side. My left foot is parallel with the imaginary baseline. The camera is a few feet inside the baseline to capture the separation between racquet and trunk during the drop. This serve was about 95mph on the Pocket Radar (I've been protecting a slight elbow niggle).

Extremely good. It looks as if you have addressed everything I pointed out to you. I like that you are doing this without a tennis court. It's another dimension of serving. I get the impression that you are aggressively going after the ball and the motion looks to be free of any friction. The toss looks to be a tad high for my taste but it isn't a deal breaker. Nice yard by the way...spectacular view. What is the body of water in the background?

[glacierguy]

Thanks don_budge. I remember you telling me to "go after it" a bit more, and toss in front. You were right. I think through watching lots of slow-motion video of the top guys I had sort of missed that final explosion and was being a bit pedestrian. That's why I included the real-time video as well as slow-motion. I didn't like the toss in my video either - too high!

The water in the background is Loch Slapin on Skye (it's the sea, but a sea loch, which is just a narrow body of water, a bit like a fjord).

Practising on the lawn has been pretty good. You can't bounce the ball, and you can't see how your serve bounces off the court, but when I did get back on a tennis court a few weeks ago, I hit my first dozen serves straight into the corner of the ad box.

I am back to civilisation (and tennis courts) in a couple of weeks and we'll see how the serve stands up. I think I have now felt what I want to be doing on a few occasions, and will strive to get that feeling more often! Thanks for your encouragement. (I have been reading your golf progress with interest, but am largely clueless on that subject.)

[glacierguy]

Here’s a still from a video taken this morning. It's the frame in which the ball pancakes at contact. Should my arm be more vertical? I think my arm to trunk angle looks OK, so if "yes", does that mean that my trunk should be leaning more to the left? I think my arm to racquet angle is OK, but should whole body unit be 10-15 degrees over to left? I'd be happy to receive some advice. (It was a beautiful morning in Fife.)

[johnyandell]

Racket is too vertical. Toss should be a bit more to left so racket is angled a little more to the left.

[glacierguy]

Thanks John, got it. I'm out this afternoon and will try to adjust... Working on this thing is fun and frustrating at the same time.