Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

[glacierguy]

Thanks don_budge, I'm working through these. Had a bit of encouragement last week, a guy who's just dropped out of ATP Challenger circuit (ranked in 900's) asked me for a hit! Quite nerve-wracking, but fun in the end. Managed quite a few rallies at full power (and full volume from him) until he blasted another winner into the corner. These guys are good.

[don_budge]

Thanks don_budge, and congrats on getting to second week of prehab - you are over the hump! And for your consideration, here is mid-phase core program (from which I'm picking the odd exercise to add to my early-phase routine). [ATTACH]n83366[/ATTACH]

As for the racquet area, you're clearly right. But I'm not competing for top spot, just somewhere on the continuum of ability, trying to improve, like everyone else. And in the words of Garth from Wayne's World "we fear change". Plus it was a strange coincidence that when I was thinking of picking up my original Prostaff 85s, Wilson released the RF85 tribute copy, so I bought some of those, and considered it fateful.

Thanks don_budge, I'm working through these. Had a bit of encouragement last week, a guy who's just dropped out of ATP Challenger circuit (ranked in 900's) asked me for a hit! Quite nerve-wracking, but fun in the end. Managed quite a few rallies at full power (and full volume from him) until he blasted another winner into the corner. These guys are good.

Let's just say I am "within the realm of possibilities". Consistently so. Perhaps the occasional loose canon shot...although I can't remember one off of the top of my head. I'm focused. Determined. Dedicated. Selfish. Yeah man...I'm locked in and focused like a laser. This fitness program has changed my world. My universe.

Finished my fourth week in the program on Saturday and added a day of strength training. Monday and Thursday core training...Tuesday, Friday and Sunday strength training. Got that boys? I'm going to start kicking ass in about two months now. Perhaps I'll start by picking on guys my own age and work my way down. We'll see. High hopes.

So check this out...Mona, my trainer, is all of five foot tall. But I have the distinct impression that she is not to be messed with. Tough little cookie. Twenty-nine years old, cute as a button and half Thai and half Swede. Yesterday I have a session with her to test my progress. So she tells me to warm up. I just did my normal routine until she came and stopped me. But not before six minutes on the rowing machine, five prelim warmup exercises and half way into the strength session. Forty-eight squats with sixteen kilos, four sets of twelve. Three sets of sixteen lunges with seven kilos in unison with a balance and hip stretch...Romanian ground leg lift with four kilos.

So after this she comes for me to take me to the testing room. First she asks me to do thirty squats and measures my time. Then with twenty kilos a step up on a step that looked too high. Fifteen on each leg. Then third American situps. Then ten pushups...on my knees to protect my shoulder. Finished off with a seven minute stretch on the rowing machine. What can I say...MAXED OUT. What a great feeling. First of all when she told me of each test I looked at her as if she was crazy. I was already tired and I didn't think I had it in me. But I did. I guess I must be doing something right. Two more weeks of Phase One...it will be a total of six of the original six to eight projected. Phase Two comes with a new diet...I have to submit everything I eat this week.

I'm psyched. It's enlightening. I cannot wait to pound that golf ball into the next world. What can I say? Get a life? It's within the realm of possibilities you know.

[don_budge]

Here's my new swing and I guess you might sense a new attitude. I am more aggressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0IN8_3PmzY

But look at this swing and think. This is an upside down serve. Lots of elements of the forehand. The whole idea of the swing is a perpetual motion swing. A swing without friction. The weight of the racquet head...or golf club should be enough to keep it swinging forever.

"Feeling the weight of the golf club". It's mind boggling. It is the universal principle of the swing. Without the reams of information.

[nytennisaddict]

Here's my new swing and I guess you might sense a new attitude. I am more aggressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0IN8_3PmzY

But look at this swing and think. This is an upside down serve. Lots of elements of the forehand. The whole idea of the swing is a perpetual motion swing. A swing without friction. The weight of the racquet head...or golf club should be enough to keep it swinging forever.

"Feeling the weight of the golf club". It's mind boggling. It is the universal principle of the swing. Without the reams of information.

interesting... never thought to apply the wrist lag concept to a golf swing.
would like to see an extreme kyrgios/sock version of that in golf

[glacierguy]

I've finally taken a couple of videos of my serve, and am posting them, as promised ages ago. They were taken this morning. I was trying to work on keeping my tossing arm pointing high, but as you will see, I failed. I'd welcome any suggestions. I feel that I'm not reaching as tall as I should into the contact, and have too much bend at the waist. Still, I keep trying!

Rear view:

[glacierguy]

Side view:

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lRear.mp4&new=

Look at the difference between you at 2.98 in the rear view and Roger Federer at 18 clicks with the right arrow key. Roger's racquet head is still in front of him and the "W" is still visible from the rear view. In order for you to be in the position that you are you will have had to manipulated the racquet head with your hand by turning it. Roger's hand and wrist have not changed their position from his setup to this point. This is a rather serious loss of power move.

Otherwise the setup is excellent. The backswing is coming. The body is turning with the speed of the racquet drop. It appears that you are more or less letting gravity dictate the speed of the backswing which is excellent. Continue to turn the shoulders a bit more until your front shoulder is at the opposite net post or so. Throw that ball into the court just a bit more and go after it...up and over it as if it were a large beach ball.

At 2.73 in your rear view the "W" should still be visible to the camera eye but as you can see the racquet has been manipulated on to its edge.

[glacierguy]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lRear.mp4&new=

Look at the difference between you at 2.98 in the rear view and Roger Federer at 18 clicks with the right arrow key. Roger's racquet head is still in front of him and the "W" is still visible from the rear view. In order for you to be in the position that you are you will have had to manipulated the racquet head with your hand by turning it. Roger's hand and wrist have not changed their position from his setup to this point. This is a rather serious loss of power move.

Otherwise the setup is excellent. The backswing is coming. The body is turning with the speed of the racquet drop. It appears that you are more or less letting gravity dictate the speed of the backswing which is excellent. Continue to turn the shoulders a bit more until your front shoulder is at the opposite net post or so. Throw that ball into the court just a bit more and go after it...up and over it as if it were a large beach ball.

At 2.73 in your rear view the "W" should still be visible to the camera eye but as you can see the racquet has been manipulated on to its edge.

Thanks very much for your quick response. After I posted, I suddenly became quite nervous that I would get trashed! I totally see what you are pointing out, and confess that I am deliberately turning the racquet face. In a way, I am showing my age, because I was thinking of John McEnroe when I first started doing it - the reason being that it helps me get the feeling of opening the chest out and rotating the shoulders. Without that deliberate supination (?) of the forearm move I was struggling to rotate my shoulders. I didn't realise that it would cause a loss of power.

I agree I need to go after the ball more. My better serves are where I consciously try to hit the ball higher than I think I can hit it (if you see what I mean). And yes, I could do with more shoulder rotation, so I will work on that. I'm on court again tomorrow, and will try to incorporate your suggestions. Thanks again!

[don_budge]

Thank very much for your quick response. After I posted, I suddenly became quite nervous that I would get trashed! I totally see what you are pointing out, and confess that I am deliberately turning the racquet face. In a way, I am showing my age, because I was thinking of John McEnroe when I first started doing it - the reason being that it helps me get the feeling of opening the chest out and rotating the shoulders. Without that deliberate supination (?) of the forearm move I was struggling to rotate my shoulders. I didn't realise that it would cause a loss of power.

I agree I need to go after the ball more. My better serves are where I consciously try to hit the ball higher than I think I can hit it (if you see what I mean). And yes, I could do with more shoulder rotation, so I will work on that. I'm on court again tomorrow, and will try to incorporate your suggestions. Thanks again!

Funny...I thought of McEnroe when I saw that. When I look at a Federer or a Sampras I see that the arm, hand and racquet swing back in the same position as it is in the set up. No manipulation.

I loved McEnroe's serve before he over did it but don't see it as a good teaching model. It would be interesting to hear what johnyandell would say about my advise. He worked with McEnroe trying to get his original motion back after it went wayward over the years. Maybe a good reason not to emulate the McEnroe motion. It had a lot of moving parts in a sense. It was his...he owned it. But it got away from his too.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...euceFront1.mov

So let's take John McEnroe for instance. First of all there is the obvious rather unconventional position of the feet. This is all McEnroe all the time. I haven't really seen another player use this position from which to serve from. Certainly another "great server" doesn't come to mind. This is totally unorthodox but is a great example how the unorthodox can work...in the hands of a genius.

But look at frame #22 and look how low he has dipped into his motion with his racquet and his toss hand. This is something I would like to see in your backswing. A bit more "dipping" of the shoulders as to give you a bit more range of motion. Loosen you up a bit. This might just slow your tossing hand a bit as it gets just a little quick which causes you to toss the ball quite high. I like to see no more than a decimetre of the ball coming downwards before the strike. This is better timing.

Observe at frame #43 John has made contact with the ball and the ball never disappeared out of the top of the view. The descent was approximately a decimetre as near as I can tell.

Now one more very interesting detail. Take a look at the initiation of the backswing. This a actually a fascinating part of the ritual that is the John McEnroe serve. The first 11 frames of this video are actually a "false start" in his backswing. The backswing does not actually initiate until frame #12. So what is he doing? He is calibrating his initiation so that his weight is perfectly balanced and able to flow. The most impressive part of the McEnroe swing is its frictionless action. Smooth as silk from a seemingly unconventional position fo the feet. Thus the aspect of genius.

But what he is doing, is synching his whole body to begin from a less than static position. It is like a "waggle" in golf. The first six frames are the false backswing and then he "bobs" the racquet head...but in reality he is not only bobbing the racquet head he is bobbing his whole body. HIs whole being. This is by definition a waggle as the term is used in golf. It is the movement that initially synchs the racquet head (or club) with the entire machine of the body to create this synergistic effect...the sum of the parts being greater than the whole.

Once John makes this false start and the racquet head once again comes to a position from where it will descend...he allows gravity to dictate the rate of speed for the backswing. The tossing hand also takes on this rate of speed as well. The whole body morphs into this tempo. Then in the upwards motion he is almost slowing down the racquet head imperceptibly as gravity is still dictating. So once his racquet head gets to the top of the hill it is ready for a most explosive action as all the part of his body are in perfect alignment to do their respective jobs.

So in this way you are spot on in emulating the John McEnroe serve. The tempo. I suggest that you slowly "bob" your racquet head just a bit a couple of times and use your entire body and being to do this. Even your mind. Most importantly your mind. Then when it is time to initiate the backswing do it with total relaxation (including the racquet hand so it will not "deliberately supinate") based on a gravitational pull downwards.

I am not certain if the deliberate supination actually will deplete power but if I were an acupuncturist and looking for a kink in your chi this little glitch would be glaring. A source of friction.

Food for thought regarding the John McEnroe serve vs. the glacierguy serve. You can incorporate McEnroe and Federer to come up with your motion. Just use the right aspects of each.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_serve/mac_1st_serve/mac_1st_serve.html?Mac1stSAdSide1.mov

Frame #26 illustrates how far he is throwing the ball in the court at 50 some years of age. I imagine in his younger days when he was really moving the serve around he was even farther in the court at impact. More food for thought.

[glacierguy]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...euceFront1.mov

But look at frame #22 and look how low he has dipped into his motion with his racquet and his toss hand. This is something I would like to see in your backswing. A bit more "dipping" of the shoulders as to give you a bit more range of motion. Loosen you up a bit. This might just slow your tossing hand a bit as it gets just a little quick which causes you to toss the ball quite high. I like to see no more than a decimetre of the ball coming downwards before the strike. This is better timing.

I've watched that video carefully and can see very clearly the "dip", which is wholly absent from my motion. I'm going to try what you suggest and will be interested to see if it helps to increase my range of motion and importantly slow down my tossing arm. I have been aware that the ball is dropping too far from peak to contact, which makes timing tricky. Tossing further into the court is also agreed - I need to challenge myself to explode properly into the ball, which is mandatory if the toss is well in front.

I'll video again next week, and hope for improvement. Might also try and take some speed readings with the Pocket Radar. Thanks for taking the time to analyse and advise.

[doctorhl]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...stSAdSide1.mov

Frame #26 illustrates how far he is throwing the ball in the court at 50 some years of age. I imagine in his younger days when he was really moving the serve around he was even farther in the court at impact. More food for thought.

What grip is McEnroe using in this clip and do slightly different grips affect anything in the backswing rhythm?

[don_budge]

What grip is McEnroe using in this clip and do slightly different grips affect anything in the backswing rhythm?

The racquet head is an extension of the hand. To this everything will be effected in the duration of the stroke. John McEnroe most likely has a somewhat continental grip that somewhat may explain his open racquet face compared to Federer's in the backswing. Interesting question? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I've watched that video carefully and can see very clearly the "dip", which is wholly absent from my motion. I'm going to try what you suggest and will be interested to see if it helps to increase my range of motion and importantly slow down my tossing arm. I have been aware that the ball is dropping too far from peak to contact, which makes timing tricky. Tossing further into the court is also agreed - I need to challenge myself to explode properly into the ball, which is mandatory if the toss is well in front.

I'll video again next week, and hope for improvement. Might also try and take some speed readings with the Pocket Radar. Thanks for taking the time to analyse and advise.

Thanks for putting your stuff up on video. You take a chance. But the good news is the swing is coming along nicely. It just needs a little ironing to get the little wrinkles out. Probably imperceptible to most. My eyes are fastidious...they see friction in swings. Swings don't have to be perfect to be effective either. McEnroe has a very noticeable hitch in his backswing but he makes the proper counter moves to correct it in the delivery. johnyandell has some excellent insight into the McEnroe motion...I wish he would weigh in. I might just pose a question to him. He may not be following this thread.

Looking at your motion I would sort of lean towards some sort of hybrid between the Federer/McEnroe motion. There looks to be a lot of improvement since the last time you posted which reflects a lot of work no doubt. The work is never done it seems with serves and golf swings. There is always a little more efficiency to eek out. Go to work glacierguy...then post an update for us!

[stotty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_odRZD-edU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYs0LJgcvOM