Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

[don_budge]

I have an appointment in three days with a personal trainer and I can't tell you how excited I am. Thanks again and keep swinging! Using everything I can to get inspired. glacierguy did me a super solid.

Also would like to mention I am using Phil's (aka gzhpcu) experience as well for motivation. His attitude going forwards into the teeth of the lion has been inspirational and best wishes going forwards with the rehab. I am imagining that I am going forwards into "prehab"...as in prevention of injury. As well as enhancing performance and holding off Father Time. I will summon everything I can in this effort as it is not something that I am predisposed to do. In the past I haven't really liked to do this kind of training but you know what? You can change. You have free choice. The mind is a powerful muscle.

[don_budge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB1velb0EqU

I can just feel a couple of heads exploding as it may appear to the untrained eye that this thread got a little off-thread. But the interesting thing about this video that I posted in the role of the shoulder in driving the clubhead down is it may have some relevance to the forehand. I am no expert in technical terms but this fellow "Stephen" talks about the need for more downward motion of the right shoulder as opposed to "external rotation" of the shoulder. This is absolutely a white light video of inspiration when it comes to perhaps the most important fundamental move to initiate the swing in a golf swing. I'm wondering if this might just be an element of the tennis forehand as well.

[glacierguy]

Dear don_budge, first, apologies for not replying sooner, I am back on the Isle of Skye with the cows and comms are limited. Second, I am humbled and delighted that you found some inspiration in my last post. I am glad that you prompted me to share my experience. And I shall tell my sister that her recommendations are spreading around the tennis community! For my part, I have been inspired by tennisplayer.net, this forum, and your posts.

The university gym I attend has all sorts of members, exercising away in their own bubbles, oblivious to their surroundings. After one or two visits I'm pretty sure you will be invisible like everyone else, and able to focus on your regime.

One thing I would add about my own circumstances, after several weeks of fairly high intensity tennis and gym work, I take breaks back on Skye where I won't (can't) play tennis for 2 or 3 weeks. At my age, I think that helps my body recover from the niggles and aches that inevitably accrue. Just a thought.

And as OP of this thread I declare that it can be taken wherever anyone wants it to go!!

[don_budge]

The Isle of Skye...glacierguy

Dear don_budge, first, apologies for not replying sooner, I am back on the Isle of Skye with the cows and comms are limited. Second, I am humbled and delighted that you found some inspiration in my last post. I am glad that you prompted me to share my experience. And I shall tell my sister that her recommendations are spreading around the tennis community! For my part, I have been inspired by tennisplayer.net, this forum, and your posts.

The university gym I attend has all sorts of members, exercising away in their own bubbles, oblivious to their surroundings. After one or two visits I'm pretty sure you will be invisible like everyone else, and able to focus on your regime.

One thing I would add about my own circumstances, after several weeks of fairly high intensity tennis and gym work, I take breaks back on Skye where I won't (can't) play tennis for 2 or 3 weeks. At my age, I think that helps my body recover from the niggles and aches that inevitably accrue. Just a thought.

And as OP of this thread I declare that it can be taken wherever anyone wants it to go!!

You take breaks on Skye? That's like me saying that I take breaks at Lilla Vickebråten. Fantastic. I never knew a guy who takes breaks on Skye. I did a bit of research on Skye. What does a guy do when he is taking a break on Skye...recuperating from physical exhaustion? Very, very interesting.

But thanks for the comeback post. Sometimes it is better to space out the replies here on the forum to give the previous post some air. Yours is perfectly timed as well. Yesterday I took the first step which in the words of the personal trainer was a "HUGE". She is half Thai and half Swedish as she put it. I was smiling as she came to the reception area to take me to the office for the interview. She must be about 5' 3" tall and me at 6' 1". An amusing sight I thought. Cute too. Real cute. I was so happy not to get the pedigree Swede. The modern Swedish woman has a pretty hard edge to her these days. Years of feminist indoctrination. Mona put me through a battery of tests to get a gage on where I am at. I asked her when we were through where I was on a scale of one to ten and she said six. I said more like three. Looking forwards to the torture.

The interview was a beautiful thing. I told her my story and what I wanted to do and she assured me that it was entirely possible. Of course it depends upon me and my willingness to work. I told a partner out on the golf course the other day...I out work people. Now it will be put up or shut up time and I am just itching for a fight. Really lit if you catch my drift. Sunday is going to be the day where she unveils Phase I for me which will be about a six to eight week program. She seems very kind but I get a sense of toughness from her too. An interesting combo of traits. You have to be cruel to be kind? She told me her mother went barefoot in Thailand as a child. Maybe later in life. Who knows? She was having me do the exercises in my socks. A good idea. She said her mother said that people are spoiled. I said people cheat. I get the feeling she is a good trainer. A very good trainer.

Great to hear from the Isle of Skye. Now I am curious what goes on there. Are the people for "stay" or "leave"? Yeah...I am all about taking divergent paths once threads have run a certain course. Once you leave the path it always possible to return. We did talk about my shoulder. Originally the title was shoulder rotation. That video is an incredible video about the role of the shoulders in golf. In the swing. Which at times I have compared to an upside down service motion. In the video the instructor is emphatically saying...Down! Down! Down! Isn't that similar to the shoulders in the forehand. That "pat the dog" is that downward motion. Conversely the service shoulder rotation is one of upwards...thus the upside down effect.

doctorhi...did you get that? This downward shoulder emphasis is going to get those hips moving in the golf swing without having to think "hips". I have always had a difficult time telling the hips what to do. They must do it from other sources than thinking about it. This video gets the whole darn thing in sync. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB1velb0EqU

glacierguy...no golf? Any golf courses on the Isle of Skye? My favourite golf book is "Golf in the Kingdom". Scottish lore I am sure. The professional in the book is Shivas Irons. A very mysterious man. The metaphysics of golf....thus the golf in the kingdom. A must read...for all tennis players. Thanks again glacierguy! Tremendous stuff.

[don_budge]

Golf in the Kingdom...Michael Murphy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxJOa90u_VY

"I say fuck it to ever getting better"...Shivas Irons.

"Part of golf is it strips away our defences against spirit. I think that is the greatest influence of "Golf in the Kingdom" has had to awaken in people, an awful lot of people, the mysticism of everyday life"...Micheal Murphy.

""Golf in the Kingdom" is about radical transformation. Not only of consciousness but all of human nature. If you think that have gotten into a kind of zone...and then there's another zone. It's deep. See and that's part of what "Golf in the Kingdom" is about the secret and greatness that all of us have. If we apply ourselves. It's available always. It's there waiting for us.

"Tennis is golf on the run"...don_budge.

"Golf and tennis are God's gift to mankind in terms of recreation."...don_budge

[doctorhl]

Don_Budge: I begrudgingly agree on downward movement of shoulders. Will try to apply that a little to “ pat the dog”. I wondered how the pros got that “flex” in their shaft with hip rotation for clubhead speed. Just don’t overdo that move with an outside- in motion. I strained a rib doing that by burying the clubhead in the ground.

[nytennisaddict]

Whilst working on serve I've noticed something that may be worthy of discussion. In a nutshell, if you are trying to get decent shoulder rotation (with line of shoulders rotating to near parallel with baseline), then it becomes easier if you delay the racket coming up into the trophy position. I find that it's best to rotate the shoulders first and only then start to bring the racket up. I have found that if I attempt both motions together, then video shows that my shoulders don't rotate nearly as much as I'm intending. I went and checked the videos of Pete Sampras and John McEnroe, both with extreme shoulder rotation, and neither bring the racket up until shoulder rotation is finished (roughly).

late to the convo... but yeah, that's what i've found too, in the last year practicing my serve daily...
salzy thinks so too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9QgWvLpUE

[glacierguy]

Thanks nytennisaddict, watched the youtube and he's definitely on the same page. Think I've just been re-discovering the wheel, but nice to know that I'm finally catching on! (Tournament tomorrow, but no high hopes.)

[don_budge]

(Tournament tomorrow, but no high hopes.)

Results?

[glacierguy]

Mixed! Won against one 20yr old, but lost against next 20yr old. Tennis Scotland Fast4 format. Not exactly encouraging, Serve was OK. Pretty sure I was volleying more than most, but was going big too early in rallies and not working for the point. On the positive side, I did hit some screamers off my Prostaff 85 which surprised the youngsters. I'll keep going...

[don_budge]

Mixed! Won against one 20yr old, but lost against next 20yr old. Tennis Scotland Fast4 format. Not exactly encouraging, Serve was OK. Pretty sure I was volleying more than most, but was going big too early in rallies and not working for the point. On the positive side, I did hit some screamers off my Prostaff 85 which surprised the youngsters. I'll keep going...

Great glacierguy! Like the attitude. Love the ProStaff 85! A reflection of your attitude. But just to be fair...you need 100 square in your racquet. It might take some getting used to. But you are already giving away so much in the years department...don't give anything away in the equipment! No doubt you've read my lambasting the game about the equipment. Perhaps you have feelings of your own. But Federer merely hogtied himself by not switching earlier in his career. Once he made the switch he went on his current tear. For an "old guy".

Now in the middle of my second week of prehab. My trainer has prescribed some of the exact exercises you are doing in your core program. She also has me on a ass-kicking strength program with flexibility (doctorhi). My shoulder, in fact, is responding quite favorably which leads me to wonder if I just might be playing some tennis after the Phase 1 of my program is completed after six to eight weeks.

I too would like to kick some of the younger asses here in my town. Whipper-snappers!

[glacierguy]

Thanks don_budge, and congrats on getting to second week of prehab - you are over the hump! And for your consideration, here is mid-phase core program (from which I'm picking the odd exercise to add to my early-phase routine). Back Exercises 2.doc

As for the racquet area, you're clearly right. But I'm not competing for top spot, just somewhere on the continuum of ability, trying to improve, like everyone else. And in the words of Garth from Wayne's World "we fear change". Plus it was a strange coincidence that when I was thinking of picking up my original Prostaff 85s, Wilson released the RF85 tribute copy, so I bought some of those, and considered it fateful.

[glacierguy]

Still working on serve, and noticed something else: If I stand tall until the toss release, and then dip down by bending knees but spring straight back up, I get more power than if I were to initiate knee bend earlier, before toss release, but with some delay before driving up. Presumably because of better stretch shortening cycle. An early knee bend (before toss release) seems common amongst pros, but Pete Sampras didn't dip until around the toss release. I guess both can work, just a question of different rhythms, but I find it easier and more powerful to toss first, dip second.

[don_budge]

When to Dip the Knees...the long version

glacierguy...I wrote this some time ago doing a comparison of the Andy Murray (fellow Scot) and Roger Federer's service motions in segments. Read through it if you have the stomach for it and take a look at the videos to see what I am talking about and if it makes any sense to you. The racquet head is moving in synch with the motion of the body. So when the racquet begins its free fall drop behind he back the knees sort of go with the motion of the racquet head. Consequently as the legs initiate the motion towards the ball or upwards the racquet head bottoms out and begins its upward trajectory to the ball.

Still working on serve, and noticed something else: If I stand tall until the toss release, and then dip down by bending knees but spring straight back up, I get more power than if I were to initiate knee bend earlier, before toss release, but with some delay before driving up. Presumably because of better stretch shortening cycle. An early knee bend (before toss release) seems common amongst pros, but Pete Sampras didn't dip until around the toss release. I guess both can work, just a question of different rhythms, but I find it easier and more powerful to toss first, dip second.

The Andy Murray Setup Position… compared to Roger Federer's

Question for you guys. I have not been watching the matches. How did Andy's second serve look??

Tough to give a fair critique of Andy's serve as I don't think Andy was 100% there this week. He's got Davis Cup coming up on clay and he really is concentrating on that. His serve didn't seem to be any different...yet. I'd wait until 2016 to really see any adjustments. No doubt the offseason will be the time to make progress on the serve.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Who said anything about being fair? I had a close look at the motion and compared it to that of John's modern model…Roger Federer. Here's a few thoughts that I came up with.

It doesn't compare does it? Not artistically and not fundamentally either. It is poorly engineered right from the setup position.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelSide2.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceSide2.mov

What better way to critique a serve than to compare the two motions side by side? If only I had the skills to put the two side by side so that we could see them simultaneously with a magic voice over. Put me on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine.

Let's begin by counting frames. Andy Murray's service motion from the initial movement back is 54 frames to contact. Roger Federer's motion is 62 frames from the initial movement back until point of contact. I am assuming that they were filmed at the same speed.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelSide2.mov

The Federer Setup Position…

Right out of the book…and you know what the book is. It's don_budge. Roger's weight is squarely positioned over the front of his front foot with his back foot poised on his toe. Left leg absolutely straight and bearing the weight. Take a look for your self...a picture in this case is worth a thousand words. The thing to keep in mind with the service setup position is that the backswing is largely dependent upon the setup. Rogers posture is rather erect with a slight bending at the waist and leaning over his front foot.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceSide2.mov

The Murray Setup Position…

Not quite Andy. Andy's weight is shared and distributed with his head forwards and his butt back. Most of the weight is centered in his front foot and not nearly so pronounced forwards in the foot as Roger's weight…Andy's weight is more in the middle of his foot. While Murray's back foot appears to be on the toe it is definitely bearing more of the weight than Federer's and it is because of the weight that appears to be balanced in his ass position. Also note the position of the ball in his hand compared to Federer's…he has the ball more positioned in the head of the racquet whereas Federer has it squarely in the throat of the racquet.

The Comparison...

See how much further Federer has his racquet head into the court than does Murray. The whole positioning of Federer from his weight to his racquet head has a more pronounced forward balanced look to it. Forward emphasized setup position as worldsbesttenniscoach may have said. Roger's chin appears to be over the baseline and his racquet hand appears to be almost over the baseline as well. Murray on the other hand has his chin and head set back noticeably from the baseline and look at the position of his racquet hand. The Murray setup looks to be decidedly backwards emphasized. See how Roger's toe is just barely behind the line and Andy's is a couple of inches behind. Another indication in the difference of the two setups…forwards emphasis versus backwards emphasis.

[don_budge]

When to Dip the Knees...the long version (cont.)

glacierguy...I wrote this some time ago doing a comparison of the Andy Murray (fellow Scot) and Roger Federer's service motions in segments. Read through it if you have the stomach for it and take a look at the videos to see what I am talking about and if it makes any sense to you. The racquet head is moving in synch with the motion of the body. So when the racquet begins its free fall drop behind he back the knees sort of go with the motion of the racquet head. Consequently as the legs initiate the motion towards the ball or upwards the racquet head bottoms out and begins its upward trajectory to the ball.

The Andy Murray Backswing… compared to Roger Federer

The Federer Backswing…

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelSide2.mov

What a beautiful and aesthetically pleasing synchronized motion the Roger Federer backswing is. Even at the very onset of his backswing in the micro stage of the start he is beautifully moving his body and the racquet head in perfect coordination. See how in the first three frames the subtle descent of the racquet head is synched with the lowering of the back heel...an indication of the subtle commencement of the weight transfer. Subtle movement of the racquet head equals subtle movement of the being. It's poetry in motion.

At frame #23 the racquet head is passing his front foot and wouldn't you know it…the front toe is beginning to lift off of the ground. The racquet head is swinging backwards at the exact speed that the weight is being transferred from the front foot to the back foot.

Frame #26 is another interesting focal point...here is the absolute bottom of the descent of his racquet head and Roger’s head is perfectly in line with the head of his racquet. In the very next frame we can see that both hands are starting to lift together in perfect synch...up together.

By the time we get to frame #28 his weight is squarely set into his back foot and it is no coincidence that the racquet head is absolutely dead nuts even with his back foot. Roger's shoulders are also squarely on line with his feet at this point and he looks so relaxed and balanced at this point in his backswing…as he will during the entire motion.

At or around frame #43 Roger's racquet tip is pointing directly upwards and we can call this the end of his backswing. Perfect. In the very next frame Roger's racquet will make its descent behind his back which is evidence for the continual motion of his racquet head without any unnecessary interruptions than may create "friction" in his motion. For the past 15 frames he has been slowly rotating his shoulders while placing all of his weight on his back foot. See how his front foot has so little weight on it. His back leg has been bending for the past 4 frames to receive even more of his weight. He is balanced and poised to begin his "forward" motion at this point.

Another interesting aspect of the perfect motion of Federer is the movement of the head. It also moves in the direction of his racquet head up until the point where the racquet head passes the lineage of his head. Then he is holding it still as he rotates his shoulders around his head.

The Murray Backswing...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceSide2.mov

Pardon my French...eeewww. What a contrast to the aesthetically pleasing backswing of Roger Federer. I want to say convoluted...but the last time I used that word it got me into all kinds of trouble. Speaking of which...where is julian1?

But here goes with the Murray backswing. Warning...it isn't going to be pretty.

For the first 5 frames it appears that Andy's weight is beginning to shift into his back foot and even his back side if you see what I mean. But his racquet head does absolutely nothing. In fact it may just be pressing forwards...afterall how would it be possible to to hold that ball directly over the baseline while moving backwards without moving the ball forwards.

Right around frame #12 he appears to have the lion's share of his weight in his backfoot but he is still leaning forwards and the racquet head is lagging far behind in relationship to his weight shift compared to Roger Federer's.

In frame #19 Andy's racquet appears to have bottomed out in his backswing and his back leg is rather bent whereas Federer in this position has a very straight leg. In fact Federer is standing very erect whereas Andy is sort of hunched forwards. Look how far Andy has come back with the ball as well. It is completely hidden to the front of his body.

Going forwards to frame #26 we see the ball finally emerging in directly front of Andy and his right knee looks to be sort of collapsing away from the court. He appears to have shifted his weight too far backwards.

At frame #30 we see Andy release the ball and in it looks to me as if this is an extremely awkward position to release it from. Somehow he is going to have to navigate it forwards with a sideways to the net motion of his arm. The right leg is collapsing (bending) and the front foot is sort of awkwardly places as well. This is an indication of some rather poor weight transfer.

In frame #37 I want to say that this is the end of Andy's backswing but look how long he hangs on to this position with his racquet as he brings his back foot up into his pinpoint position. It's another 12 frames to frame #49 when he finally has his right foot in position and the racquet head will begin to fall behind his head. Just for funsies click another three frames to #52 and look at this rather squeamish position where he is going to make his move on the ball from. Another couple of clicks and you can really see that this boy doesn't have all of his ducks in a row. His shoulders appear to have opened up rather prematurely...the racquet head is lagging too far behind this move.

Click on through to the hit and his ass never seems to catch up with the action. It is dead ballast and its position from the setup to the hit prevent anything to appear even remotely fluid...fluid as in Roger Federer.

The Comparison...

Roger Federer has it all going on and he has it going on in perfectly orchestrated moves. The synchronicity is a splendour to behold and John has certainly picked the right serve to model his teaching system from. Andy Murray has it all going on too. Unfortunately not in a good way. Right away in his setup position he is preordained to make moves in his backswing that are not in perfect synchronicity. His "pinpoint" technique also play havoc with his timing and seamless execution.

Roger's racquet head seems to be an extension of his being whereas Andy's appears to be some sort of hammering tool that doesn't get the proper engineering that it should. Roger's tool is more of a whip...it is fluid in the hands of an artist.