A key position on a tennis serve

[lovati4]

What is the key element – position, movement or timing for a tennis serve? One of them is a good ball toss. Many coaches would agree that a good trophy position is also important.
In his articles on Tennis player Brian Gordon explains that one of the most important elements of a serve is a good timing of the leg push (drive). A tennis player should push up with his (her) legs just before the beginning of the backswing (racquet drop). The good timing leads to better racquet drop and eventually speed of the racquet head.
Some time ago in his articles Bruce Elliott described the most important contributor to the racquet head speed on the serve – namely internal shoulder rotation. This rotation happens up to the point of contact with the ball and even continues after the contact point.
Look at Roger Federer serve and John Yandell’s article here.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...00fps.mp4&new=
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members.../murray_serve/
It is actually very similar with shoulder rotation on the modern forehand as I discussed in the following thread on the forum.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...-%D2%86s/page2
According to Bruce Elliott internal shoulder rotation creates about 40% of a racquet head speed at contact. That’s a lot.
It does not happen fully automatically. Key to good and effortless internal shoulder rotation is a prestretch on the shoulder. It happens during external shoulder rotation.
External shoulder rotation creates the stretch on the shoulder which at some point reverses itself into internal shoulder rotation on the way to the contact point. The better is external shoulder rotation the better and more effortless is the following internal rotation of the shoulder.
Bruce Elliott writes the following:
“So let's look at the next factor: external rotation. Hopefully, that's not a new term to students of the serve. In a good service action of a mature player who's been prepared to do this, you'll see that the external rotation of the upper arm is backwards almost to the horizontal.
If you go out and look at the major League pitchers, you'll see the same thing. Their arm is almost parallel with the ground…
So you need to rotate that arm all the way back... And the only way to get that you get it to rotate back is to drive with your legs, and to drive with your shoulder. This is what drives the racquet away from the back.”
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...Part1.pg2.html
Bruce Elliott makes it feel that good external shoulder rotation is very hard to achieve. I would suggest that it is not. Especially if you practice it without an actual serve.
Let’s start in the trophy position. Gently push up with your legs and let the racquet drop into the backswing. If the arm is relaxed the racquet head will make a semicircle. It will soon reach the following position.


This is the position of a maximum shoulder rotation. From this point the shoulder begins to gradually rotate back to the point of contact.
This position is one of the key elements of a good and effortless serve. The racquet does not stop in this position. So it is not static, it is a dynamic position. In my view it is one of the most important positions for a good serve.
Tennis players can easily practice getting into that position (without an actual serve) and then rotating their shoulder and arm back to the contact point and after that.
Nobody does it better than Roger Federer. Many people notice that his racquet drop is not very deep – possibly his shoulder is not very flexible that way. So speed of the racquet head should come from somewhere else. It might be a great and effortless transition from external to internal shoulder rotation.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...00fps.mp4&new=
One more point I would like to make is that there is a connection between the trophy position and the position I am discussing here.
I found out that for me in the trophy position my elbow should be high, almost parallel to the ground and the racquet head partially over my head. Then I just let the racquet head fall back (following the example of Roger Federer). For players with other service motion or better shoulder flexibility it may be different.
So the player can choose the trophy position and the backswing in order to reach the position with good external shoulder rotation (see the picture below). From that point the shoulder begins to gradually rotate back to the point of contact and beyond.

It might be a new way of looking at and teaching a tennis serve.
Instead of viewing the serve as the racquet going down (back) and up we can imagine the serve as the external (outside) shoulder, arm and racquet rotation leading to internal (inside) rotation of the shoulder, arm and racquet to and through the contact point. All you need for that is a good trophy position and timely push with the legs.

[stotty]

A great post as always. I just haven't had the time to respond but hope to chip in a fair bit here.

The power source. My, how opinions on the have changed over the years. Once upon a time, in Becker's era, it was all about knee bend. Most power comes from the knees, people used to say. Opinion has changed a lot since then. ISR is undoubtedly the greatest supplier of power so long as the to transition from ESR is smooth. I think we all get that now and it can be evidenced very easily. But the whole kinetic chain is a big factor and there are contributions to power sewn in here and there along the way.

I'll be back. I have some theories and observations I would like second opinions on.

[stroke doctor]

what is ISR and ESR

[stotty]

what is ISR and ESR

Internal Shoulder Rotation and External Shoulder Rotation.

Apologies, I don't usual shorten terms but was pushed for time when I wrote the post.

[lovati4]

Thank you for you post Stotty.
Brian Gordon explaines the same thing - external shoulder rotation turning into internal shoulder rotation - in the following video clip 4:20 - 6:30.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...n_upper_swing/
On the other hand he seems to think that the thing a player should really focus on is the timing of the push with the legs (before the racquet drop). All those rotations he describes in the video are complicated. But I think that for some players it might be beneficial to practice relatively slowly - external shoulder rotation then turning into internal shoulder rotation starting from a good trophy position.

[stotty]

The way it see it is each part of a serve is dependent on part before it. And, yes, it is highly complex and Brian points out hat you can't expect a student to be able to control aspects that happen in a tenth of a second. It's all about setting up positions that give the student the best chance of success; the common positions we all know about. Brian likes to start his students 20 degrees shy of the trophy position to synch external rotation to internal rotation to leg drive. Here is a video of Brian demonstrating this. https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...itation_point/

Knowing the stroke mechanics is one thing, successfully coaching them quite another.

[arturohernandez]

Thank you for you post Stotty.
Brian Gordon explaines the same thing - external shoulder rotation turning into internal shoulder rotation - in the following video clip 4:20 - 6:30.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...n_upper_swing/
On the other hand he seems to think that the thing a player should really focus on is the timing of the push with the legs (before the racquet drop). All those rotations he describes in the video are complicated. But I think that for some players it might be beneficial to practice relatively slowly - external shoulder rotation then turning into internal shoulder rotation starting from a good trophy position.

I agree! I taught my daughter when she was young to do the ISR explicitly. We would throw footballs and I would always emphasize her rotating the arm out with the classic quarterback finish. I see it as the fundamental part of the throw that people get wrong. Ask most people to throw a ball and they will finish with their hand straight at the target. I used to do that. I explained to a very good bowler and athlete that the throw should finish out like a pitcher or quarterback and he looked at me strange. Then I showed pictures of a pitcher or a quarterback's finish and he just could not believe it.

So, yes, I think the ISR as you call it which I taught by having the palm of the hand facing toward your back as a finish teaches that.

My son who has a great serve says that it comes from a loose arm. I agree but I think teaching the finish helps. I can still see my daughter today sometimes rehearsing the ISR before she serves to make sure she does it all the time.

As Stotty noted, then everything has to build to that very short flash of the moment before contact. It is so hard because that very short moment is basically not accessible consciously. I have worked diligently on my own serve for years. There seems to be a moment of looseness and fluidness that builds very slowly and then it all culminates in contact. But I lose control completely. I have no idea where the serve is going. The more I loosen the better the serve. My trick is to see where it is going in my mind before I serve. Becker used to do that and I have found that this is the only way that works. If I try to aim it, my arm tightens which kills the ISR and acceleration.

It is very counterintuitive. So rather than loosen people tighten and then they lose the ISR and ESR as well.

[stotty]

The thing is you can get all these things right but some servers will still faster than others, sometimes much faster. Do Raonic and Kyrgios have better motions than Roger? I don't think so, but they can serve 20mph quicker than Roger. Deeper rackets drops perhaps? Anyway, a lot must come down to fast twitch and just how fast you can swing that arm.

[glacierguy]

I agree! I taught my daughter when she was young to do the ISR explicitly. We would throw footballs and I would always emphasize her rotating the arm out with the classic quarterback finish. I see it as the fundamental part of the throw that people get wrong. Ask most people to throw a ball and they will finish with their hand straight at the target. I used to do that. I explained to a very good bowler and athlete that the throw should finish out like a pitcher or quarterback and he looked at me strange. Then I showed pictures of a pitcher or a quarterback's finish and he just could not believe it.

So, yes, I think the ISR as you call it which I taught by having the palm of the hand facing toward your back as a finish teaches that.

My son who has a great serve says that it comes from a loose arm. I agree but I think teaching the finish helps. I can still see my daughter today sometimes rehearsing the ISR before she serves to make sure she does it all the time.

As Stotty noted, then everything has to build to that very short flash of the moment before contact. It is so hard because that very short moment is basically not accessible consciously. I have worked diligently on my own serve for years. There seems to be a moment of looseness and fluidness that builds very slowly and then it all culminates in contact. But I lose control completely. I have no idea where the serve is going. The more I loosen the better the serve. My trick is to see where it is going in my mind before I serve. Becker used to do that and I have found that this is the only way that works. If I try to aim it, my arm tightens which kills the ISR and acceleration.

It is very counterintuitive. So rather than loosen people tighten and then they lose the ISR and ESR as well.

100% agree. ISR can be rehearsed, visualized, before being put into an actual serve. And I love the description "very short flash of the moment before contact". When I'm practising serve, the most common phrase I repeat to myself over and over is "loose, timing". When it works, it's a bit like the crack of a whip.

[arturohernandez]

100% agree. ISR can be rehearsed, visualized, before being put into an actual serve. And I love the description "very short flash of the moment before contact". When I'm practising serve, the most common phrase I repeat to myself over and over is "loose, timing". When it works, it's a bit like the crack of a whip.

Yes! There is that rapid acceleration part of it that does feel like cracking a whip. But it is so fast and loose. I cannot think of any other shot in any sport I have played that is quite like it.

Some people claim it like a shot-put or like throwing a javelin. Maybe our bodies are like that but the looseness, acceleration and the crack of the ball seem unique to me.

Most of then time throwing a ball requires us to grip the ball so that it does not fall out of our hands. But in tennis the racket can be literally slipping out of our hand at contact.

BTW, has anyone seen Agassi's serve. Seems like he did not really flip his racket out using ISR as much as other servers.

[lovati4]

What do coaches mean when they talk about fast-twitching muscles relating to a tennis serve? They possibly mean fast-twitching muscles in the shoulder.
A player probably needs that just for one movement - elevation of the shoulder (the elbow) in the upper swing.
On the other hand Brian Gordon explains that elbow extension happens as a consequence of the quick elevation of the elbow, without any effort (muscular contraction).
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...n_upper_swing/ 6:40-8:50
It is not difficult to practice the shoulder (the elbow) elevation as a part of a well-rounded series of exercises. You can use different variations of the shoulder press. As with any exercises with weights good technique is very important.