Rafael Nadal ҆s forehand is a better role model than Roger Federer ҆s

[lovati4]

I think grip plays some role in the modern forehand technique, originally described by Brian Gordon and Rick Macci. But on the other hand Roger Federer plays with moderate eastern grip. Rick Macci said many times that it was not about the grip. You can hit great forehand with any grip ranging from moderate eastern grip. Brian Gordon writes that concepts discussed in his articles apply across the grip styles. https://www.tennisplayer.net/members....html?new=true
I would guess that invention of new strings allowed tennis player to create much more spin with new racquet paths (new technique).

The wrist gets into laid back position naturally as a consequence of the pull on the grip. Then after transition point (Brian Gordon writes in detail about) in a few moments the wrist should get into a proper position at the point of contact.
Actually after the transition point the wrist moves forward very fast as a consequence of trunk, arm and hand motion. That’s why the racquet head so easily catches up with the hand.
So to hit a good forehand you have to manage (control) your wrist motion perfectly after the transition point on the way to the contact point. That is number one difficulty I see in learning modern technique- slaping the wrist forward. Sometimes avoiding doing something is more difficult than doing it .
Solution I would suggest is to change racquet path from relatively linear to really low to high.

[doctorhl]

I would choose the Federer role model for some kids because of efficiencies that minimize injuries. This rear view clip of Federer warming up is the epitome of efficient motion in footwork and swing. How he can nearly maintain this “look” in match play is incomprehensible to me! His court coverage and ball speed and spin in the warmup is better than many at full speed!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sfBguU0U6Jg.

[seano]

Lovati4

There is a 50:39 minute video on Youtube featuring Brian Gordon's presentation at the 2013 USPTA National Convention on the Type 3 forehand. He goes into great detail about the Type 3 forehand and explains that the wrist is used in a passive way and allows the racquet (to quote Brian) to "swing around look a rusty gate" due to CENTRIPETAL force (post-transition point). My analogy to that is how a skier being pulled by a turning boat will gain tremendous speed as it swing around thru the turn. Centripetal force is what aligns the racquet properly at contact.

In terms of "Slapping" of the wrist, Brian also describes how the "speed" element of the "heavy ball" comes from horizontal forward movement derived from leg drive, pelvic rotation, upper trunk rotation, shoulder joint motion (non-twisting shoulder movement) & where the arm passes horizontally through the trunk. Slapping would occur as the arm passes through the trunk in a horizontal fashion with wrist extension/flexion through contact.

Vertical racquet head speed provides the "spin" element of the "heavy ball" and is almost completely a product of the internal rotation of the shoulder (twisting shoulder movement), particularly a straight-arm forehand. The more bent the arm at contact, the more likely to start to incorporate forearm movement and possible low-high lifting from the shoulder, to create the spin. With a straight-arm forehand there is no real low-high lifting, it is just internal shoulder rotation. Centripetal force (with a passive wrist) occurs during twisting shoulder movement and provides vertical racquet head speed. Keep in mind though that if the elbow is too bent at contact, the swing becomes trunk dominated, thus you start to lose the ability to hit a true "heavy ball" (speed & spin).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Cqwa5bxV0&t=989s

I too would choose Federer's forehand as a model due to it's efficiency, adaptability and less likelihood of injury. Brian also says that there is less stress on the elbow with a straight arm.

[lovati4]

Seano, thank you for the summary of Brian Gordon's presentation. I actually watched it some time ago. And I would like to congratulate myself that I seem to have taken everything you wrote about into account.
On the other hand sometimes scientists and inventors do not like to emphasize difficulties in their (great) work or it takes time and practice to see them.
For example, Rick Macci talks very clearly about great unit turn and putting a racquet head to the outside (before pulling it forward).Is it (latter) a difficult movement biomechanically? Not at all. Then why is it so difficult to teach a girl to do that?
Rick Macci explains that children want to take their racquet back behind the body to hit the ball hard. They do not understand that it is not necessary at all. That's how I approached it at the beginning. But maybe they just do not feel confident they can control the ball.
What they and other players often do is slap the ball forward losing control. Especially girls because they typically want to hit flatter balls. Their wrist moves along a horizontal plane and slaps the ball forward. And then they reverse back to long backswings or firm wrist.
When this idea came to me I tried find a solution. I would suggest changing racquet path from relatively linear to really low to high.
To do that a player should relax his (her) hand while pulling the racquet forward allowing racquet head to drop. At some point the racquet head will be close to perpendicular to the ground. From this position it should go up. This path is really facilitated by external shoulder rotation and laid back wrist. Wrist snap will be minimized.
The beginning of the following video shows this almost in slow motion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7K8UKqA_4g

[seano]

Lovati4 -

2 questions so I can better understand your thinking.

1) "Allowing the racquet head to drop", are you suggesting a) wrist ulnar deviation b) shoulder external rotation c) forearm supination, or what combination of the three?

2) "Racquet head close to perpendicular to the ground", are you referring the racquet face/strings or the racquet edge? How much does the grip play a role?

[lovati4]

1) It is the flip.
I think shoulder external rotation and laid back (extended) wrist are the keys. At the same time the wrist gets into that position just as a consequence of pulling the racqet (grip) forward and by relaxing the hand. I would not try to force ulnar deviation of the wrist, it is not a healthy position for the wrist to be in.

2) the lowest point of the racquet path (for the tip of the racquet head)
In the following video clips from Tennis player archive you can pause the video to see the lowest point of the racquet path.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...50fps.mp4&new=
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...50fps.mp4&new=

[doctorhl]

lovati4: Totally agree on the flip thinking. It’s hard for kids to realize centripetal forces will drop the racket head for you if you just relax the hand and pull the racket butt forward. I used a lot of ulnar deviation learning the flip because I couldn’t make myself move to a semi western grip from eastern.

[lovati4]

lovati4: Totally agree on the flip thinking. It’s hard for kids to realize centripetal forces will drop the racket head for you if you just relax the hand and pull the racket butt forward. I used a lot of ulnar deviation learning the flip because I couldn’t make myself move to a semi western grip from eastern.

Thank you doctorhl for your post. It is interesting that the tip of the racqet head reaches the lowest point not at the first moment of pulling the racqet forward but later. In the following video clips you can pause the video to see the lowest point of the racquet path (sorry for repeating this point).
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...50fps.mp4&new=
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...50fps.mp4&new=
This makes it easer to drop the racquet head low. From that point the shoulder begins to rotate back internally and the racqet head goes up.