Internal Shoulder Rotation

[gzhpcu]

I played tennis today, and on an adjacent court, a very talented young Russian boy was being trained. He is about 13 years old and very talented. The only thing I noticed when his coach had him practice his serve was that he had no internal shoulder rotation.. His arm was straight after impact and the face of the racket faced the court. We both finished at the same time, so i went over to his coach, complimented the youngster and pointed out the lack of internal shoulder rotation on the serve. The coach, a sixty year old guy, did not agree. I told him to go on tennisplayer.net and look at the articles there. He was very snotty and conceited. I was only being friendly but he took it the wrong way. But I saw the kid listened and hope he will go on the internet and look up this site.

The level of tennis teaching is pathetic at the TC Lido. Reminds me of the old saying "in the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king": Never saw any teacher use a video camera to discuss with his student.

[stotty]

I played tennis today, and on an adjacent court, a very talented young Russian boy was being trained. He is about 13 years old and very talented. The only thing I noticed when his coach had him practice his serve was that he had no internal shoulder rotation.. His arm was straight after impact and the face of the racket faced the court. We both finished at the same time, so i went over to his coach, complimented the youngster and pointed out the lack of internal shoulder rotation on the serve. The coach, a sixty year old guy, did not agree. I told him to go on tennisplayer.net and look at the articles there. He was very snotty and conceited. I was only being friendly but he took it the wrong way. But I saw the kid listened and hope he will go on the internet and look up this site.

The level of tennis teaching is pathetic at the TC Lido. Reminds me of the old saying "in the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king": Never saw any teacher use a video camera to discuss with his student.

The thing is if you don't you know then you don't know. I think most of us would be pretty ignorant if we hadn't discovered Tennisplayer. Ironically, Tennisplayer is the least conceited place to come and talk about tennis.

[johnyandell]

Ha! Phil don't worry I have had the same experience a few times myself...won't mention any names...Wait a guy who used to coach Maria among others...

[jeffreycounts]

Never saw any teacher use a video camera to discuss with his student.

That's sad. Especially considering the fact that everyone has a slow motion camera sitting in their pocket.

[Error]

I played tennis today, and on an adjacent court, a very talented young Russian boy was being trained. He is about 13 years old and very talented. The only thing I noticed when his coach had him practice his serve was that he had no internal shoulder rotation.. His arm was straight after impact and the face of the racket faced the court. We both finished at the same time, so i went over to his coach, complimented the youngster and pointed out the lack of internal shoulder rotation on the serve. The coach, a sixty year old guy, did not agree. I told him to go on tennisplayer.net and look at the articles there. He was very snotty and conceited. I was only being friendly but he took it the wrong way. But I saw the kid listened and hope he will go on the internet and look up this site.
t.

Most coaches who know what they are doing as well as ATP and WTA players are going to look at you cross eyed if you bring up "Internal Shoulder Rotation". There is a disconnect between tennis forum and youtube educated coaches/ players and real world coaches/players. I think I would be be annoyed to if I'm coaching what you describe as a very talented player and some stranger starts talking about Internal Shoulder Rotation and how I'm doing it all wrong. Do you honestly think Sampras's coach was concerned about internal Shoulder Rotation? Do you think he ever even heard the term?

[Error]

The thing is if you don't you know then you don't know. I think most of us would be pretty ignorant if we hadn't discovered Tennisplayer.

Must have been dark days. How do you figure Sampras learned about internal Shoulder Rotation? Or do you think possibly he just practiced some fundamentals and the rest took care of it self?

[gzhpcu]

Some players are naturals, like Sampras, Federer, Gonzales and do not need coaching. I find it pathetic that a tennis coach is ignorant of the fundamentals of biomechanics. The tennis teachers here have no passion.

[johnyandell]

Error,
Good point. Some great players naturally achieve technical perfection. Others are great but don't. Others need the help of coaches. Having filmed GS champions on down to rec players sometimes the truth makes a big difference.

[stotty]

Error,
Good point. Some great players naturally achieve technical perfection. Others are great but don't. Others need the help of coaches. Having filmed GS champions on down to rec players sometimes the truth makes a big difference.

Perfectly put. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Error]

Some players are naturals, like Sampras, Federer, Gonzales and do not need coaching.

Sampras said something to the effect that " years of practice look a lot like talent to some people" or words to that effect. John, you should know that talent or "natural" ability is a bit of an insult. Federer addressed this issue as well by jokingly saying he mostly just sits on the couch, making the point that the last thing he does is sit on the couch. Uncle Tony recently said that Federer and Nadal still to this day practice more than anyone and that's a big reason why they are where they are. There is no talent difference IMO between the top 3 guys and the 100 ranked player or even 300 ranked player. There are things that separate them but its not talent.

One of my female students who is maybe 110 pounds who is USPTA certified was giving an older women a lesson on serve when the women asked her to serve so she can watch, the women was astounded at how hard she served. She could not comprehend how such a small young girl ( women 21) could serve like that. What the women didn't see is literally tens of thousands of practice serves over a 6-7 year period.
Most rec players dont know what practice or training is. They severely underestimate what it takes. The time and effort to get really good at anything is almost inconceivable to many so they call it talent and natural ability. Ive been working on a classical guitar piece for two years, Ive played it hundreds of times and I still make mistakes.

[johnyandell]

Error,
Still going to disagree. Filmed dozens of top 100-300 players. They are great but not the same when it comes to explosiveness, fluidity, movement. Not gonna argue though about how hard they work.

[stotty]

I think there is some confusion over natural talent, hard work, and what not. First, just because a player has an abundance of natural talent doesn't mean they will be better than a lesser talented player. I have seen plenty of exceptionally talented players who can do the odd thing here and there that even world-class players can't do. What makes tennis so interesting is the concoction of qualities it takes to make a player great. I think when you have natural talent combined with great technique then you're on to something. That said, plenty of talented players are flawed and can't necessarily learn stuff as technically as well as a coach might like.

Borg had less than half the natural talent than McEnroe. Djokovic has far less than Roger. Yet neither were/are weaker players their adversaries. At the very least they are equal if not better. I find that aspect fascinating. You're not guaranteed the trophy just because you are supremely gifted. A lesser talented player but with great technique and a fabulous temperament can go all the way too.

Would Roger's forehand be as good as it is today if he had chosen to have a continental grip and a swing path like Ken Rosewell? I doubt it very much. This is what I mean by combining natural talent with technique.

I think they all work hard. I must even assume Kyrgios worked hard to get to the level he is and that it all went to his head once he got there.

[doctorhl]

Stotty is right. Rewatch the Dustin Brown/Nadal match on grass. Brown made Nadal look like a beginner. Watch old footage of Nastase. Same with Kyrgios, but.......they lack the skill set necessary to contain that talent. The top players all have technique, mental ability, but are able to capture and use some aspect of abnormal natural ability that separates them from others(McEnroe- eye/hand coordination, Federer-footwork for court coverage, Borg-endurance).

[Error]

I must even assume Kyrgios worked hard to get to the level he is and that it all went to his head once he got there.

Kyrgios is always bragging about how he never practices. Perhaps he would actually win something significant if he did.

[Error]

... abnormal natural ability

That's a contradiction in terms.

I dont believe in mysterious abnormal/Natural ability. Did Medvedel tap into this mysterious power in order to beat Djocivic? I'll just assume he is a good athlete that either practices more or practices smarter than others, has really good coaches, a good perspective and attitude. That makes a lot more sense to me than mysterious abnormal/Natural ability.


I dont like words like Talent Supernatural and Miraculous.They are words with no real meaning. They are words people use when they cant explain things. I think what separates the best form the rest doesn't need a supernatural explanation.. I take a somewhat more scientific approach and scientists have discovered there is an amazing correlation between practice and talent.