role of hip snap in the serve?

[nytennisaddict]

hehe, measured the court i was on... net is about 2in higher than normal... i guess that's a good thing...
what made me curious, is that last night on a different court, i was serving lights out (flat down the T)... felt like i couldn't miss,...
went back to practice today, and i was clipping the tape more often.
i guess it's a good thing to practice on a slightly higher net?

back on topic... was experimenting with hip thrust and knee bend (pin point stance).. for me... feels like there's an ideal ratio... and while not scientific... it feels like the hip thrust contributes more to the horizontal vector (ie. more ball speed), whereas knee bend/leg thrust contributes more to the vertical vector (ie. more spin)

[glacierguy]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

One thing I'd like to add is that in my opinion, contributors like Dr Gordon who explain the precise biomechanics of the serve make it clear that they are not trying to explain how to teach the serve.

And for a laugh, here is a video of me trying to remember my old serve, and yes, I know the leg drive is pathetic! But I'm not kidding, this is the first time I've ever seen my serve, and I'm rotating that shoulder, even though when I learnt to do that we didn't even have the vocabularly to describe the motion.

[don_budge]

i guess it's a good thing to practice on a slightly higher net?

I like to practice serving or warming up from behind the baseline. Doesn't matter where...one or two meters.

[nytennisaddict]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

One thing I'd like to add is that in my opinion, contributors like Dr Gordon who explain the precise biomechanics of the serve make it clear that they are not trying to explain how to teach the serve.

And for a laugh, here is a video of me trying to remember my old serve, and yes, I know the leg drive is pathetic! But I'm not kidding, this is the first time I've ever seen my serve, and I'm rotating that shoulder, even though when I learnt to do that we didn't even have the vocabularly to describe the motion.

nice serve.
yeah, imagine explaining to my kid, with biomechanical terms, how to walk.
to me, it's one of reasons why i like macci... he uses language that kids/commoners/layfolk understand and can refer/remember when they are training.
i know some folks debate the flaw in the "pat the dog" tip,... but it to me it was just a progression he used to get beginners and intermediates to start tracing the correct racquet path. and it worked.

[nytennisaddict]

I like to practice serving or warming up from behind the baseline. Doesn't matter where...one or two meters.

yeah that's a good one too.

[Error]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

One thing I'd like to add is that in my opinion, contributors like Dr Gordon who explain the precise biomechanics of the serve make it clear that they are not trying to explain how to teach the serve.

Well that's good to hear but there are plenty of people who dont make the distinction and do try to teach from this perspective which if you ask me (and nobody has) will do nothing but inhibit learning. You learn by doing. Its the "doing" that develops your skill level. The problem is people dont make a real effort at "doing". They make half hearted attempts and have unrealistic ideas and goals . Plus as you get older not many people have the motivation, desire and time to develop a consistent 100 mph serve.. And why go through all the hard work when you can just join a tennis forums and tell everyone you hit 120 mph kickers.. and never have to back it up.

[glacierguy]

I agree with you, Error. I still hit buckets of serves, usually early in the morning so I'm not distracted, practise makes perfect (one day). And your last sentence is why I posted vid of my serve - no pretending!!

[Error]

I agree with you, Error. I still hit buckets of serves, usually early in the morning so I'm not distracted, practice makes perfect (one day). And your last sentence is why I posted vid of my serve - no pretending!!

I posted a video of my 5'3" daughter serving 100mph in order to prove my point that its practice not micro analysis that works and it just goes right over some people's head. The first reply is an in-dept analysis and critique of what she should change. Just totally ignores the only thing that matters, The Actual Serve! The quality of the ball!

[nytennisaddict]

I posted a video of my 5'3" daughter serving 100mph in order to prove my point that its practice not micro analysis that works and it just goes right over some people's head. The first reply is an in-dept analysis and critique of what she should change. Just totally ignores the only thing that matters, The Actual Serve! The quality of the ball!

yup, saw that, thx for posting.

i do agree that alot of reps is critical, i do think that every rep should be some improvement toward the ideal.
i think folks who over analyze are trying to figure out what the ideal is.
and sometimes it can turn into an excuse (intentional or not) to not do the hard work of all the reps

kinda reminds me of an entrepreneur book i read recently... basically the book starts with something similar to: "stop over analyzing the perfect business plan, or studying how to become a master of all the micro steps/skills, and start making mistakes asap". basically fail early, fail often... each failure will take you closer to where you want to go.

going back to the serve... even IF you micro analyze the perfect technique... there are things you might copy that i don't understand... so will be exaggerated, applied inappropriately, or at the wrong time, etc... of course, you gain that understanding from lots and lots of reps :P

[Error]

yup, saw that, thx for posting.

i do agree that alot of reps is critical, i do think that every rep should be some improvement toward the ideal.
i think folks who over analyze are trying to figure out what the ideal is.
and sometimes it can turn into an excuse (intentional or not) to not do the hard work of all the reps

kinda reminds me of an entrepreneur book i read recently... basically the book starts with something similar to: "stop over analyzing the perfect business plan, or studying how to become a master of all the micro steps/skills, and start making mistakes asap". basically fail early, fail often... each failure will take you closer to where you want to go.

going back to the serve... even IF you micro analyze the perfect technique... there are things you might copy that i don't understand... so will be exaggerated, applied inappropriately, or at the wrong time, etc... of course, you gain that understanding from lots and lots of reps :P

I play guitar, and I'm learning to play classical.. The instructors are so much more open minded. Technique is extremely important when playing classical guitar but at the same time they dont micro manage. There are many different ways to accomplish the same thing. And if you play a beautiful peace of music no teacher tells you, "well yeah it sounded great but you used incorrect fingering and played it in a different position then Abel Carlevaro.. but it sounded great!" They would never say that. They would say it sounded great the way you played it. Keep doing whatever it is your doing. Not "well sure it was a great serve but you didn't pronate".

[glacierguy]

I'm injured at the moment - pec. major strain whilst practising serve! You've got to laugh. Except it's the injury which crashed my early tennis life (about age 20). Just coming to end of 4 weeks recovery, hoping to be back on court after Easter. If you can hit any serve at all, be happy and grateful

[don_budge]

I'm injured at the moment - pec. major strain whilst practising serve! You've got to laugh. Except it's the injury which crashed my early tennis life (about age 20). Just coming to end of 4 weeks recovery, hoping to be back on court after Easter. If you can hit any serve at all, be happy and grateful

Sorry to hear this glacierguy. This is the problem with over practicing a serve that is faulty in the motion. Unless this motion is accomplished in a "frictionless" manner like a rollercoaster gliding along a track the risk of injury is potentially a career ending event. Let's be honest with ourselves. We have x amount of cartilage and tissue in our shoulders which is a very tricky mechanism. Damage to this mechanism can be irreversible.

I am all for practice and have the reputation for being the hardest worker in any given group but it has to be intelligently done. To go out and practice several hundred faulty motions is a recipe for trouble. It is best to iron out the kinks and sources of friction one point at a time and once you have this kind of motion you can ride it to the promised land.

Unfortunately there are very few examples of frictionless service motions in the modern game. Most are chockfull of hitches and obvious glitches that form little pockets of waste and potentially harmful residue.

Nobody is laughing here. Shoulders are not made to be abused. The expected life of the mechanism is going decrease with any kind of imperfection in the motion. It won't happen the first time always but over time...well you get the picture. Wishing you the best in recovery and you should be in a shoulder rehab program. I recommend shoulder prehab programs for all serious tennis players. Rehabilitate before you get injured. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[glacierguy]

Thanks for best wishes. I shall look after my shoulder and aim for the frictionless ideal. Saw a good exercise for shoulder stability online - suspend fairly light kettle weights from a weight bar or pole using resistance bands, hold above head and walk with lunges. The wobbling of the elastic requires constant small corrections from shoulder muscles. Haven't done it myself yet though! Injury is entirely my own fault, the result of pride - happened to be practising when a few of the local university men's 1st team + coach showed up, and I tried too hard in order to "impress" them with what an old guy could do...Might be able to fix the service action, but mental weaknesses will take a bit longer.

[nytennisaddict]

I'm injured at the moment - pec. major strain whilst practising serve! You've got to laugh. Except it's the injury which crashed my early tennis life (about age 20). Just coming to end of 4 weeks recovery, hoping to be back on court after Easter. If you can hit any serve at all, be happy and grateful

how many serves were you hitting a day? for me i find hitting 100 in one session (2x daily max), is about my limit...
or maybe you're just hitting the ball really hard!

get well soon.

[glacierguy]

Thanks NYtennisaddict (this forum is more sympathetic than my wife!!). I would hit 100-150 once or twice a week. Definitely not more than that. But the injury happened on about number 20 after a long warm up, so bit disappointing.