role of hip snap in the serve?

[Error]

Error,
Check out this BB clip. Pronation is a common term but inaccurate. Actually what turns the racket over is internal shoulder rotation. It's been measured and found to be a huge contributor to racket speed.
I agree with your basic point that over analyzing and focusing on things that are consequences rather than causes is counterproductive.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...LevelFront.mov

I'll check it out and I'll also try and locate the article I found on a study saying the exact opposite, that pronation (or whatever it is) was fairly insignificant. I hope I bookmarked it. Also If you look up guys like McEnroe Djokovic Kyrgios Becker ( there are many more) tell me if you see pronation through contact? I don't. Also if you search Youtube for "top ten servers" or something like that, watch the videos and notice that only about half of them end up with the racket face turned to the side. If half the WTA/ATP dont end up with their racket facing the side why are online coaches telling everyone its the secret to a great serve? Those four players I mentioned are all known for having great serves.


I Found the Article!
BEWARE of PRONATION! http://ushsta.org/beware-of-pronation/
According to the guy in the article pronation contributes under 5% to the speed of the ball.

[johnyandell]

I think the confusion is terminology. Pronation technically is the rotation of the forearm from the elbow. That's different that internal shoulder rotation. Here is what Jack Groppel says about that:
"Having students emphasize internal shoulder rotation which then generates power down the arm to the hand causes less muscle stress." Internal shoulder rotation not pronation is what causes the racket to turn over. That's what Boris is doing in the clip. Vritually every top server does that.

[nytennisaddict]

That's not exactly what I'm saying but close. What I'm saying is if you practice the correct things then all it takes is time and effort and its impossible not to develop an advanced serve. But if you practice the wrong things, like hip snap, you're probably going to find it impossible to develop into the player you want to be. I think even if you practice the correct fundamentals which are basically the right grip, stance, toss and contact, people just under estimate the time it takes. And I mean really under estimate. For example I was on court for about two hours today practicing nothing but serve. I'll do about an hour a day on average, 6 months out of the year and only occasionally when I have to pay for indoor court time during the winter months.

This still is no where near the amount of time my daughter has put into into her serve over the years. I think people look for shortcuts. They cant imagine that it really takes years of pretty much daily practice to get really good at anything.

agreed, but that's why i'm on here. to figure out what the correct things are.
jy's fundamental vid is what i originally believed as the "main" fundamentals (and still do), but i'm also not serving 130mph, so clearly there are power sources i can be tapping into.

like you, i spend time daily (sometimes twice daily) hitting serves (between 100-400 serves)... i'm currently obsessed with developing a great 5.0+ level serve. i also find it way more productive than tracking down someone to hit with at the last minute :P

but since i'm out there anyway, willing to put in the work, i might as well go figure out and learn what specific tweaks i can be experimenting with.

[nytennisaddict]

When people talk about pronation on serve they are talking about pronating through contact where the racket face ends up facing the side not coming up on edge, even if you're technically correct, which I'm not sure you are because depending on who you listen to some people claim that what we refer to as pronation isn't actually technically pronation but that's neither here nor there. I just think it would benefit people to get their focus back on fundamentals and to practice fundamentals and forget about all of these side issues that serve (pun intended) to confuse and complicate otherwise simple concepts.

so what was your methodology for teaching your daughter? did you just have her throw a football for a while, and say, "just do that with a racquet now"?
or did you just demo, and she imitated?
what are they things you point out, correct, tweak, etc...?

how did she choose pinpoint vs. platform? even this question is a personal struggle for me... since i'm willing to spend the time, should i switch? according to salzy he prefers platform and made a switch,... every fed analysis says platform. henin switched to platform.... yet alot of big servers still serve pinpoint... not that this is a reason not to switch, but over the years i've invested quite alot in pinpoint... is time spent switching worth it? (i haven't found anything convincing). i have, for example, invested a year switching from a hawaiian fh grip to an extreme eastern/sw grip... so i'm willing to make the investment to change... question is, should i for the serve.

how did you and your daughter choose for yourselves? (especially since the stance is not considered fundamental).

[nytennisaddict]

NY,
You might find this instructive:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lder_rotation/

And this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/the_myth/the_myth_of_the_archers_bow/

Pat is a friend of mine but we don't agree on this emphasis. And I don't think Brian's article needs an update. Why don't you look at is on court serve teaching progression?

jy, what's your analysis of how wawrinka produces a big serve?

[nytennisaddict]

thoughts on karlovic, and what appears to be "hip out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0RbHNOCaws
i know i know, he's ungodly tall, and that's why he serves so well...
but arguably if i was on the tour and the "only weapon" i have is my serve, i'd think he's spent alot of time optimizing his "only" money maker
maybe the hip thing is mainly for pin pointers?

[stroke]

I think this Pat style(with the hip flexor stretch as Pat calls it) or limbo type stretch serve like Stan has(and I think Feliciano Lopez also) is way easier with more of a pinpoint type stance. Both Stan and Lopez kind of step up with their back foot as they toss the ball.

[Error]

I think the confusion is terminology. Pronation technically is the rotation of the forearm from the elbow. That's different that internal shoulder rotation. Here is what Jack Groppel says about that:
"Having students emphasize internal shoulder rotation which then generates power down the arm to the hand causes less muscle stress." Internal shoulder rotation not pronation is what causes the racket to turn over. That's what Boris is doing in the clip. Vritually every top server does that.

OK then! Do we agree that ending with the racket face to the side is not a fundamental aspect of the serve and does not seem to be very significant to the quality of the serve?

[Error]

agreed, but that's why i'm on here. to figure out what the correct things are.
jy's fundamental vid is what i originally believed as the "main" fundamentals (and still do), but i'm also not serving 130mph, so clearly there are power sources i can be tapping into.

like you, i spend time daily (sometimes twice daily) hitting serves (between 100-400 serves)... i'm currently obsessed with developing a great 5.0+ level serve. i also find it way more productive than tracking down someone to hit with at the last minute :P

but since i'm out there anyway, willing to put in the work, i might as well go figure out and learn what specific tweaks i can be experimenting with.

There is a 5' 7" ATP player from Asia... or maybe he's not from Asia maybe he's just Asian.. I forget his name, He average serve in one tournament was 96 mph. His top was like 105 or 110. You might think that other players would easily tee off on those serves but that really inst the case. His serve is fast enough and with good placement to put the opponent on the defensive. At your height you must be doing something right if you are hitting in the 90s and getting it in consistently. Most recreational players I see, and I see a lot of them, dont come close to that speed and get them in the box.

It probably took my daughter 3 years of practice to add 20 mph to her serve. I have some video of her serve years ago and now but its part of a longer video and I cant figure out how to isolate just a small clip and just pull it to show you. We had a radar gun and her average first serve was 78mph.This was when she was about 16 or 17. Shes now 20. I'll go into a little more detail on how she did it...

[johnyandell]

Error,
Actually no. Again that position is full internal shoulder rotation, not so called pronation. It's analogous to to full extension on the forehand. Maximizing it maximizes racket speed--among other things. My view of it is part of this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/ultimate_fundamentals/john_yandell/the_serve/

But we can certainly agree to disagree.

[Error]

so what was your methodology for teaching your daughter? did you just have her throw a football for a while, and say, "just do that with a racquet now"?
or did you just demo, and she imitated?
what are they things you point out, correct, tweak, etc...?

I definitely didn't make the throwing analogy which I think is another horrible way to approach the serve. You can watch Serena throwing a baseball on you-tube and tell me if there is any correlation between the ability to throw and the ability to serve. Serena cant throw a ball if her life depended on it. What more proof do we need.? But I came to that conclusion a long time ago as I dont feel even remotely like I'm throwing a ball when I serve.

As far as methodology I keep harping on fundamentals. If your standing is a relaxed position somewhat facing the side of the court and have been taught the correct continental grip,we work on toss. The toss is crucial and I still work on mine and I'm still surprised at how much time I've spent on it and I still get it wrong.. The difference is I've developed my serve enough that I can still make a bad toss work, to a degree at least. But that ball being in the correct place is like a billion times more important than anything else.

Since you're already in the correct grip there is no need to mention bringing the racket up on edge because it happens due to the continental grip. Next we work on contact point, Not worrying about how or where you hit the ball, but the WHEN and that is before the ball drops too much. What is to much? If contact is made with a bent arm you're letting it drop to much.(we're not talking about a kick serve right now).

So we have the stance, the toss, and the contact point. Those are the basic fundamentals. If you cant hit a good serve with just those things in mind than you cant hit a good serve..Racket drop, bending, stretching, hip in or out, turning the torso,jumping, leg drive.. Most of that stuff develops on its own as you practice and progress. Obviously at some point you begin to experiment a little and micro manage a little more if need be. The trick is to practice the fundamentals until they have burned their way into your brain so you dont need to think about them and as I have said already this is the part that the majority of people underestimate. Young people get it much quicker but the good ones have a major commitment to practice. For us it takes an incredible amount of time to develop muscle memory which is really just brain memory.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying the fundamentals are simple to understand. Learning isn't easy. Your brain works overtime and you constantly have to reset, clear your brain and try again. Chances are ( in tennis) if you dont understand the things being discussed they are almost certainly not worth thinking about.. Stance, toss and contact are easy to understand. The problem is players who dont really like the grind and repetitiveness of this type of practice look for an easy way out... that's where all of the peripheral stuff comes in.

how did she choose pinpoint vs. platform? even this question is a personal struggle for me

Good question and I dont remember. It must not have been a very significant decision or I would recall. She uses a pinpoint and I use a platform. It's like a one handed backhand vs two handed. Which ever the player feels is more natural. I have a one hander, she has a two hander.


...

since i'm willing to spend the time, should i switch? according to salzy he prefers platform and made a switch,... every fed analysis says platform. henin switched to platform.... yet alot of big servers still serve pinpoint... not that this is a reason not to switch, but over the years i've invested quite alot in pinpoint... is time spent switching worth it? (i haven't found anything convincing). i have, for example, invested a year switching from a hawaiian fh grip to an extreme eastern/sw grip... so i'm willing to make the investment to change... question is, should i for the serve.

I would suggest that the stance is almost irrelevant and personally I wouldn't switch unless you try a few and it feels more natural for you but a switch isn't going to improve a serve that is fundamentally undeveloped.. not that yours is but you're asking.

[nytennisaddict]

I think this Pat style(with the hip flexor stretch as Pat calls it) or limbo type stretch serve like Stan has(and I think Feliciano Lopez also) is way easier with more of a pinpoint type stance. Both Stan and Lopez kind of step up with their back foot as they toss the ball.

that's what i'm thinking too.

[nytennisaddict]

wow, i really appreciate the detailed response!

I definitely didn't make the throwing analogy which I think is another horrible way to approach the serve. You can watch Serena throwing a baseball on you-tube and tell me if there is any correlation between the ability to throw and the ability to serve. Serena cant throw a ball if her life depended on it. What more proof do we need.? But I came to that conclusion a long time ago as I dont feel even remotely like I'm throwing a ball when I serve.

my mental model has always been that there are elements of throwing that overlap, but not completely the same, in particular throwing a football... in partciulra:
* sync'ing core turn with the arm
* hand turning out to get the spiral (ie. going from on edge to open face)
* keeping the tossing arm, shoulder throwing arm, in a line
to get the racquet drop motion, i learned/teach to have folks throw an old racquet repeatedly...

As far as methodology I keep harping on fundamentals. If your standing is a relaxed position somewhat facing the side of the court and have been taught the correct continental grip,we work on toss. The toss is crucial and I still work on mine and I'm still surprised at how much time I've spent on it and I still get it wrong.. The difference is I've developed my serve enough that I can still make a bad toss work, to a degree at least. But that ball being in the correct place is like a billion times more important than anything else.

agreed... the toss for me has been the #1 issue IMO for my serve. when i can get my toss in my spot consistently, good things happen... but more often than not, a toss that is just a few inches off means i'm ad-libbing my service motion to compensate for non-ideal toss.

Since you're already in the correct grip there is no need to mention bringing the racket up on edge because it happens due to the continental grip. Next we work on contact point, Not worrying about how or where you hit the ball, but the WHEN and that is before the ball drops too much. What is to much? If contact is made with a bent arm you're letting it drop to much.(we're not talking about a kick serve right now).

yeah, when i teach beginners the serve, and do the, hold the ball on a rope from a stick thing (hold a static ball at their contact), i find that beginners will often look pretty good. but as soon as you introduce the toss, everything goes out the window because the timing (when) of the contact is off... so they start taking shortcuts or whatever to make up for their lack of timing.

So we have the stance, the toss, and the contact point. Those are the basic fundamentals. If you cant hit a good serve with just those things in mind than you cant hit a good serve..Racket drop, bending, stretching, hip in or out, turning the torso,jumping, leg drive.. Most of that stuff develops on its own as you practice and progress. Obviously at some point you begin to experiment a little and micro manage a little more if need be. The trick is to practice the fundamentals until they have burned their way into your brain so you dont need to think about them and as I have said already this is the part that the majority of people underestimate. Young people get it much quicker but the good ones have a major commitment to practice. For us it takes an incredible amount of time to develop muscle memory which is really just brain memory.

agreed

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying the fundamentals are simple to understand. Learning isn't easy. Your brain works overtime and you constantly have to reset, clear your brain and try again. Chances are ( in tennis) if you dont understand the things being discussed they are almost certainly not worth thinking about.. Stance, toss and contact are easy to understand. The problem is players who dont really like the grind and repetitiveness of this type of practice look for an easy way out... that's where all of the peripheral stuff comes in.

agreed... part of what hurts me, is breaking old bad habits

Good question and I dont remember. It must not have been a very significant decision or I would recall. She uses a pinpoint and I use a platform. It's like a one handed backhand vs two handed. Which ever the player feels is more natural. I have a one hander, she has a two hander.

... I would suggest that the stance is almost irrelevant and personally I wouldn't switch unless you try a few and it feels more natural for you but a switch isn't going to improve a serve that is fundamentally undeveloped.. not that yours is but you're asking.

i wonder if the difference between pinpoint and platform was something related to the rule change of having to keep a foot on the ground. ie. old timers kept the front foot on the ground, then they adapted the "leave the ground version" that turn into a "pinpoint style" which generations copied... and lastly maybe the platform style was just the next evolution unencumbered by history or copying old school pros...

[nytennisaddict]

There is a 5' 7" ATP player from Asia... or maybe he's not from Asia maybe he's just Asian.. I forget his name, He average serve in one tournament was 96 mph. His top was like 105 or 110. You might think that other players would easily tee off on those serves but that really inst the case. His serve is fast enough and with good placement to put the opponent on the defensive. At your height you must be doing something right if you are hitting in the 90s and getting it in consistently. Most recreational players I see, and I see a lot of them, dont come close to that speed and get them in the box.

It probably took my daughter 3 years of practice to add 20 mph to her serve. I have some video of her serve years ago and now but its part of a longer video and I cant figure out how to isolate just a small clip and just pull it to show you. We had a radar gun and her average first serve was 78mph.This was when she was about 16 or 17. Shes now 20. I'll go into a little more detail on how she did it...

interesting... now i gotta find his name!
i follow all the short folks... chang, rochus, schwartzman, cibulkova, henin, etc..
according to: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...-serve.307940/ rochus supposedly hit over 130, and he's about my height!

but you're right... the location and consistency are more important that squeezing every mph out of my little frame.

[Error]

.... part of what hurts me, is breaking old bad habits

Trust me we understand. My daughter's serve has changed many times. As well as her forehand and backhand. There were times were her forehand was as perfect as you can ask for but very slowly old habits creep in and before you know it it goes to sh*t again. So its back to the drawing board. We have had to rebuild her strokes many times. Some of this had to do with poor coaching when she was younger. We had to undo certain things. Luckily even though it can be very frustrating, she loves practicing. She was certified USTPA at 19 and teaches part time. One of the local high school coaches brings his entire team to her because he says she's the only one who knows what she is doing. LOL.

She has a no nonsense teaching approach focusing on simple fundamentals and she doesn't let her students get away with anything some of the other coaches who sit by and say nothing as they watch their student hit 50 late balls in a row. It's like huh? Why aren't you teaching your student to get his/her racket back? That's your job! I get frustrated as well seeing these kids putting in the time and effort and the parents paying for it and receiving sh*tty coaching.